New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements

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@yung-96noob said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:

hello, if still possible (probably not, but cba to read) i want to be a candidate for PC, time for big auto to become the leader B)

Please try to be more productive. A troll post like this does not serve the community well.

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@veteranashe said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:

Why are we talking about queues and fullshare on this thread?

The main point that was raised, was whether or not the focus of FAF should be:

A. Best gameplay in the eyes of experienced players and the training of new players.
B. What low-rated players think they like to play the most.

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I have only one phrase for this election


Old players, or experienced ones, will never look at things from a new perspective.


@Morax i hope you will get luck in that election

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Isn't that kind of a useless statement? Old and/or experienced players are the only ones who are willing to run in an election like this.

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Are people who decided to rip through the applications and credibility of Morax, and the now removed applications of you know who, going to do the same for FTX? From reading through some previous comments, from an outsider it almost comes off a bit biased in this 'discussion/debate' and i am sure there are many people out there and who have participated in these threads already who know and have followed FTX's ruling so should be in a wonderful position to pick his application or credibility to continue.

TMM was a great thing but its effectively dead right now unless you want to wait a long time and possibly be matched with a grey or low rated player. For the 'top players' they do not touch it and havent for a while, and the 'active competitive' group which could class as 1300-1800 have mainly moved back to custom games. The multiple resets, and the timing of these killed the momentum it had in my opinion. Possibly there are 'stats' that say other wise but i would be surprised if they were specific to 1300+ rating.

Sure it is nice to see and hear of possible 2v2 tournaments (no idea why these havent been more of a thing) but once again mentioning 'selecting top players' to take part to promote it means essentially fuck all to players that are far more active but just miss out on this 'top elite bracket'. Oh great we get a twitch stream of a tournament that will either be poorly casted with a range of streamers who didn't seem to confident on how to even stream or set it up for good viewing... but most likely these top players, some of which only show up for tournaments will get a potential financial reward.

last point/suggestion- Since this has now become a two horse race - would there be the possibility of a live stream discussion? Both applicants are in the same timezone or at the worst not too different (not sure FTX where you are situated). I don't see the point in explaining potential benefits of such a thing, either people are willing to do it or not. But curious what others think of the idea.

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I think FtX should put his opinions about Brazilians and others in his application.
This way people can make an informed decision about the thought process and motivations of the applicants as see who represents the whole community better.

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Emperor_Penguin’s Player Councilor Application
https://docs.google.com/document/d/135dn1Xzr0xCGcKpvbgRT7Oa5S9b58yKMBsEs7P_OFhc/edit?usp=sharing

Introduction:
Hello everyone,
I’m applying for Player Councilor, as I would like to give more value/weight/focus to the desires of the majority of FAF players, improve the TMM experience a lot, increase transparency, and reduce toxicity in FAF. In preparation for this application, I have spoken to members of many different FAF communities to get their perspectives so that I could better understand the desires of the communities that make up FAF and act in their best interests. I have been trying to learn more about what everyone wants, like I think the player councilor should.

Some background on me:

I have been part of the FAF community for 7+ years.

I helped with and coded many of the improvements in the random map generator within the last year, and worked on many other FAF-related projects.

I have personally made over 50 maps for FAF.

I have recurrently helped to train new FAF players and answer FAF-related questions.

I’m nice. I actually listen to feedback from ‘regular’ FAF players and normally respond in a relatively friendly and informative way.

Some differences to the other candidates:

I aim to make FAF more inclusive and to better-serve many underrepresented parts of FAF.

I am to make FAF significantly more transparent, with more community involvement for the things within my power as PC.

I am the only candidate with a solid history of reliably being relatively nice to players when they ask questions or suggest ideas rather than berating or dismissing them.

A lot of my opponents’ platforms/stances/activities seem to cater to the 1800+ and 1500+ crowds while giving a disproportionately small focus to the wants/needs of the large majority of FAF players. I intend to keep the 1500+/1800+ crowd happy while also making the majority of FAF players happier as well. (How? – Giving each bracket more of what they desire and improving TMM options and community involvement.)

I didn’t initially want to run for PC as it takes a lot of time and energy to do well, but I have a great vision for TMM, and I would like there to be a Player Councilor who accomplishes that and actually gives more value/weight/focus to the desires of the majority of FAF players.

Some perspective:
The current focus for things like ladder/TMM map pools, forum attitudes/rhetoric, tournament funding/attention, etc, seems to cater primarily to high-level gameplay for the top 1%-5% of FAF players, while giving much less weight to the 77.1% of players with less than 1000 rating. AFAIK, most FAF players play FAF to have a good time, which generally involves playing a fun game with people in a friendly environment.

Giving a lot more weight to the desires of the lower and mid-level players will create a better experience for the thousands of noobs and mid-level players rather than catering to the <1% of players who are 1800+ players or even the top 5.2% of 1500+ global FAF players. Having a PC who is focused more on improving the experience of the ‘normal’ FAF player would help FAF to grow more and retain more players.

Some current statistics from recent leaderboards (using unrounded ratings for players with 10+ rated games):

For 1v1 Ladder:
1221 players with 10+ games = 100%
26 players with 1800+ rating = 2.1%
63 players with 1500+ rating = 5.2%
~941 players with <1000 rating = 77.1%

For Global:
8782 players with 10+ games = 100%
83 players with 1800+ rating = 0.9%
342 players with 1500+ rating = 3.9%
~6,053 players with <1000 rating = 68.9%

I think the numbers speak for themselves.

Things like ladder/TMM map pools for lower-rated players should be changed to be a lot more like what the bulk of those players would actually like to play, or an additional matchmaker queue option should be added for them. (Currently, the lower-rated players’ map pools seem more like they’re designed as feeder-pools to weed out everyone who doesn’t like the basics of the types of gameplay enjoyed by high-level FAF ladder players and to get them experience with that sort of gameplay. While this isn’t the worst thing that could be done, it’s far from the best, and it doesn’t prioritize regular player preference, fun, playerbase growth, and new player retention anywhere near as much as it should.)

To address many of these challenges and several others, I believe that TMM should get a major overhaul from a user-perspective. I have already talked with developers and have a feasible vision for TMM, presented below:

TMM/Matchmaking
TMM should appear to have one universal queue with a checklist of different game options/types that players can select/deselect to be queued for greater/fewer potential games and game types. Players get matched with other players who have compatible game preferences. With this system, players could have one overall TMM rating and or several different ratings for different individual queue options/categories. Sample TMM options list below:

Select game types to queue for:
(the more game types you select, the faster you will find a game)
[Select All Button]
o 1v1
o 2v2
o 3v3
o 4v4
o share until death
o full share
o new players only (only grays/players with low game counts could select this option)
o simple ladder map pool (easy maps that are noob-friendly)
o moderate ladder map pool (map pool intended primarily for mid-ranked players)
o advanced ladder map pool (more interesting maps for pro players)
o randomly generated maps
o rotating map pool decided by a different FAF community each cycle
o player's choice poll map pool
o popular map pool
o casual party-games (unrated)
o short casual party-games (unrated, games last 30 minutes or less)

These sample TMM options are open to changes based on community feedback, and additional options could be added if there is a strong desire for them and a willing developer. Certain things, like options to queue for games larger than 4v4, and things like a queue option for co-op games against AI or a map veto system, are things that I am in favor of adding to the matchmaker as well, but would require significant additional coding/problem-solving to be incorporated, and would only be added if there is a willing developer (strong community support for something often makes developers more willing). Other things, like making one or more queue options affect global rating, could be done more quickly. So, if there is strong community support for having one or more TMM options use/affect global rating, I would want to add that feature, as that could help noobs/grays/etc to get good games and proper global ratings more easily.

Improving the community experience:
I plan to act as a liaison between the playerbase and other FAF officials. Specifically, I plan to voice the wills of the playerbase and work with the relevant FAF officials to try to get popular changes that would be good for FAF implemented. So, for example, this might include talking with the moderation team about implementing a better system for requiring ‘official’ FAF streamers to adhere to certain non-toxic standards.

I plan to make substantial efforts to reduce toxicity in the community, and that will be a major focus for me. I plan to bring FAF into better repute and aim to work with the FAF association and the board to bring about important changes to the FAF leadership structure that will improve the situation tremendously. I’ve already spoken with the president of the board (among others) to that effect.

Furthermore, I plan to increase transparency on FAF dramatically. This incudes:

  • Creating a new channel on the FAF Discord specifically for community discussion of ladder/TMM map pools, the maps in them (and their gameplay), and the processes used to determine what maps are put in the pools

  • Making ladder/TMM team map pool discussions publicly visible on the FAF Discord

  • Posting potential ladder/TMM map pools in advance on the FAF Discord (where they can be discussed for potential changes before being implemented)

  • Actively giving more (useful) feedback to map authors when they submit a map for ladder/TMM and it doesn’t make the cut (oftentimes, people submit maps for ladder/TMM and get basically no response from the PC or his team, even after several months… this is obnoxious/frustrating to the mapper and it lowers the odds of the mapper creating good maps for ladder/TMM in the future)

  • Working with other teams (such as the balance team) to make more explanations and easily accessible community involvement for improving FAF via things like new Discord channels for suggesting and discussing balance changes as well as things like suggestion channels for improving the random map generator and map pools.

Tournaments:
I would continue PC support for the Legend of the Star(s) and intend to support the high-level competitive FAF scene as it has a solid format that has many positives. I would also encourage and support additional tournaments and event creation, including for things like ‘Average Joes’ tournaments and “Map Gen’ tournaments, etc.

I would continue the tradition of working with potential donors to properly distribute funds and create appealing tournament formats. I would continue to help make tournaments fun and competitive experiences for players with proper scheduling, avatar rewards, prize money, etc.

I would work with both established casters and up-and-coming casters to provide them with good live castable tournament content. I would work with the promotions team to ensure the promotion of FAF tournaments and various casts and streams.
However, while I am ready and willing to support tournaments and events in all the ways reasonably expected of the PC, including as outlined above, I feel that the PC position has grown too extensive and would be better-served by an additional elected position, which I’ve tentatively dubbed ‘Tournaments Leader’.

So, if I am elected PC, I would promptly hold an election for the ‘Tournaments Leader’ position and would accept applications from any reasonable candidates that are in line with FAF’s standards and would do a respectable job. The accepted applicants would then be put to a vote by the overall FAF community, and the winner would become the new ‘Tournaments Leader’.

The ‘Tournaments Leader’ would be part of the PC team and would handle almost all tournament-related responsibilities of the PC and could bring additional visions and ideas for better-serving the tournaments side of FAF. However, if for whatever reason, the ‘Tournaments Leader’ fails in his duties, I would take over and handle things properly.

Pledge:
If elected, I will:

  • Collaborate with the FAF Board to work towards our objectives.

  • Communicate professionally and avoid bringing FAF into disrepute.

  • Spend an average of at least 4 hours per week working on these responsibilities.

  • Be available at least 2 hours every other week for a voice call to discuss these responsibilities and the responsibilities of other FAF Councilors.

  • Attempt to help other Councilors perform their responsibilities.

  • Understand that if I am unable to perform these duties, I may resign or be replaced.

TL;DR
If elected, I plan to:

  • Have substantial positive impact on the FAF community and community growth, not only by making changes that benefit more of the players, but also by helping to change the atmosphere on FAF (in Discord, forums, etc) to be more friendly and less dismissive/toxic to noobs and to new ideas

  • Massively improve the TMM experience with lots of user-choice and new options with community-driven map pools (including the option to queue for just randomly generated maps)

  • Survey and poll a lot more and take greater efforts to reach regular FAF players

  • Create a publicly visible section on the FAF Discord specifically for discussing ladder/TMM map pools, the maps in them (and their gameplay), and the processes used to determine what maps are put in the pools

  • Create systems for more community engagement and transparency with things like map pool selection, balancing, a reaction-based polls channel in the FAF Discord, etc

  • Create a new elected position specifically for tournaments (tentatively dubbed ‘Tournaments Leader’)

  • Act as a liaison between the playerbase and other FAF officials
    Work with the FAF association and the board to bring about important changes to the FAF leadership structure that will improve FAF’s atmosphere and situation tremendously

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@emperor_penguin said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:

Emperor_Penguin’s Player Councilor Application
I have already talked with developers and have a feasible vision for TMM

Who exactly are these people? Because I certainly was not included in any such discussion and it would be me who is in the position of having to implement a large part of your idea, or ultimately, spend a lot of time reviewing and maintaining the code.

I would also not consider this:

lots of user-choice

to imply this:

Massively improve the TMM experience

The point of matchmakers is not to give people every possible option they might want (that's the point of custom games), it's actually to reduce barrier to entry by making many of the choices for them. Especially when you want to focus on the new player experience and new player retention, you want to make getting into a game as intuitive as possible. It's much better for that to be 1-click "Play Now" and have few choices over what the game settings are than to have 10-clicks for "Maybe play a game at some point if enough other people click the same stuff as you".

I am more inclined to agree with FTX on this issue. Letting the players decide everything is a fallacy in video games. If you always do what the majority of players says they want you end up with a hunk of junk, because the problem is, often times people don't actually know what they want (they think they know, but they don't). It is up to the PC to figure out what players want even though they don't know they want it, and then give it to them.

Finally, many further improvements to the matchmaker will be coming (eventually) regardless of who the PC is, because in fact, the driving force behind its development is --surprise-- the developers, not the PC. I'm honestly a little surprised that overhauling TMM (which we just recently built in the first place) is such a major part of so many candidates' platforms, since those promises are things that will almost certainly not be fulfilled.

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@Askaholic i do believe all I said in my post was to stop rating resets. Short of the move of going to a league system, would you simply reset ratings again even if the majority of the community does not want it?

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So I am being lazy for all those promising more tournaments do rememeber:
All folks pushing for obligatory fun tournaments, there all of 2 TO’s who do modded gameplay tournaments with anything resembling frequency. Myself and Tru_Putin.

And then in general only reliably active TO’s are Putin and Swkoll. And Ftx himself obviously.

And then runnjng a tournament, the catherding required for it. It make it all work out. Its a several hour long investment and its not just the tournament. You need to promote it take time in Aeolus, go on the forum.

Nag you people yoh know and more all to get them to play it. And then fire. And the TO’s for lower rated fun tournaments simoly don’t exist.

I’m a shitty 1k Global. Any balance or gameplay suggestions should be understood or taken as such.

Project Head and current Owner/Manager of SCTA Project

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@morax I think your platform is much more realistic with regards to dev resources.

This is like the 3rd app tho that has proposed major dev work (granted the first 2 were eventually disqualified).

@morax said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:

would you simply reset ratings again even if the majority of the community does not want it?

Depends on what the benefits would be, but as we learned from 2v2, I think they would have to be pretty convincing in order to outweigh the drawbacks. So I don’t expect we will be seeing any more rating resets any time soon.

However, I would not cite “majority of players don’t want it” as the most important reason for not doing it.

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Fair, fair. I should say "majority request WITH good reason." That better? ; )

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Well if the majority and the PC agree then there is no problem. I didn’t say the majority is always wrong, I just said they’re not always right.

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I hope you people don't mind when I say something too, although it will be my first comment on these forums. From an outsider perspective FtX seems like the one who has - obviously - the most clue what's going on and what is achievable. Still I can't help to feel a bit uneasy at the perspective of having him as PC for two reasons:

a) Division system is not something that will have a big impact. Hundreds of games use Elo or a variant thereof; League uses the division system and I don't think they reported big improvements
b) for some reason you seem to be needlessly aggressive and like to argue a lot. I recognize it from myself. The problem might be that although you could do some good work, you're neck deep into personal conflicts which will eat your time (see: your own proclamation what you will do as your first action - call out other councillors? Like what is that supposed to achieve?)

Morax seems to have some good ideas, though the money stuff was very disappointing... but imo he demonstrated in this thread that he's capable of admitting mistakes and working with the people that he had conflicts with, which is a great trait no matter how you look at it.

~so far

(oh and @Askaholic although I completely agree with you on the matter, you shouldn't use "(they think they know, but they don't)" as an example for it because it showed quite the opposite: Blizzard didn't want to make classic realms, but the community was right in that they would be a success. It's rare, but it happens. ;))

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For clarification: I am the main developer of the division system. It's not like FtX is pestering me to work on it, I myself had the motivation to start working on it. Of course I worked out the details with him. The division system will come regardless of who will win this election. At this point most of it is worked out already so I think there won't be much further input needed by the PC anyway.

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Guys, im still waiting for your replies to this question here:

https://forum.faforever.com/topic/1589/player-councilor-election-2021/16

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@shaileen said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:

a) Division system is not something that will have a big impact. Hundreds of games use Elo or a variant thereof; League uses the division system and I don't think they reported big improvements

Just about every major competitive game uses divisions in some form. CS:GO, LoL, SC2, etc. Likewise, FAF had it in the past and it was quite a fondly remembered feature. The point is that it gives a more coherent goal based on a cool new symbol next to your name that shows off to other people. What TrueSkill currently operates as is a high score, in fact one of the reasons we have the system round up or down in global lobbies is to at least somewhat address this reality and stop people worrying about every single game's impact on their rating. That solution wasn't the most high effort attempt to do so granted, but it showcases that this has been a problem recognized in FAF since even before I was around.

b) for some reason you seem to be needlessly aggressive and like to argue a lot. I recognize it from myself. The problem might be that although you could do some good work, you're neck deep into personal conflicts which will eat your time (see: your own proclamation what you will do as your first action - call out other councillors? Like what is that supposed to achieve?)

Aggression? Probably, but I will put the political spin on and call it "being direct." Not really much for me to talk about for this I think, either you like or don't like the way I communicate everywhere. There's probably like 1500 pages of text logs to comb through and find me expressing anything and everything in any way. A FAF Tower of Babel.

I can only cite my work with current FAF contributors. I argue a lot because I'm the official FAF voice on the forums/discord/aeolus giving answers to ideas and suggestions in like 90% of situations. I need to argue, it's the job. People say something is bad and give reasons why, I retort with why this was rejected in conversations elsewhere. I am ultimately the negative dude that needs to explain why things don't happen the way people wanted it to happen. I don't like it when I give feedback and get told "it will be taken up for consideration" and then I'm left in the dark; I'd rather get told my idea is bad with the reasons why.

I don't really think I'm neck deep in personal conflicts. It's only a couple!

I worked with Giebmasse on reforming the Discord and inform him about things pertinent to moderation. I work with Sheikah, Askaholic, BlackYps, and Brutus across several developer projects. I work with Petric, Swkoll, Jagged, Farm, and arch on FAFLive management and also general tournament creation. Likewise, I work with most of those said people for matchmaker pool creation. New people come to me to talk about helping out with training, run some tournament formats by me, who to talk to for x or y issue, and whatever else. I don't really think anyone got upset at me for anything except when I said I wouldn't let them get or do something.

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@gingerbreadman said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:

Are people who decided to rip through the applications and credibility of Morax, and the now removed applications of you know who, going to do the same for FTX? From reading through some previous comments, from an outsider it almost comes off a bit biased in this 'discussion/debate' and i am sure there are many people out there and who have participated in these threads already who know and have followed FTX's ruling so should be in a wonderful position to pick his application or credibility to continue.

Nothing stops the anti-ftx legion from doing so. I would love to explain everything I do and plan to do over a 100 episode podcast. This is an affirmative answer to your idea of a live stream discussion, provided it operates like a legitimate debate.

TMM was a great thing but its effectively dead right now unless you want to wait a long time and possibly be matched with a grey or low rated player. For the 'top players' they do not touch it and havent for a while, and the 'active competitive' group which could class as 1300-1800 have mainly moved back to custom games. The multiple resets, and the timing of these killed the momentum it had in my opinion. Possibly there are 'stats' that say other wise but i would be surprised if they were specific to 1300+ rating.

There was only 1 reset. My answer to this can be found in the locked PC thread in which I responded to Morax saying he would never reset ratings again. You can read the rationale for the decision there. Long story short, hardly any good data existed in the first place. I want to prevent long term integrity issues with the rating system. I didn't expect 10 placement games to be the end of the world for so many players.

Sure it is nice to see and hear of possible 2v2 tournaments (no idea why these havent been more of a thing) but once again mentioning 'selecting top players' to take part to promote it means essentially fuck all to players that are far more active but just miss out on this 'top elite bracket'. Oh great we get a twitch stream of a tournament that will either be poorly casted with a range of streamers who didn't seem to confident on how to even stream or set it up for good viewing... but most likely these top players, some of which only show up for tournaments will get a potential financial reward.

Manpower.

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I just wanted to point out that we linked to FTX's current workload here:
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/1571/an-election-will-soon-take-place-for-the-player-councilor-role-apply-here/2

FTX's current workload is not the criterea for this election. Candidates don't HAVE to fulfill every single point in that list to be elected as Player Councilor. However as you will be running against FTX you might want to consider his points.

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What you describe as workload I describe as a long list of words. Ftx is the master as typing alot of words in a grammatically and orthographically correct manner and forces people to engage in lengthy word battles, but the actual real world outcomes of his actions are seldomly talked about. If you have a good point you don't need 50 forum pages to make it .