MMLs are terrible - Lack of competent T2 siege option contributes to turtling
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@BlackYps You want replay of not being able to break a firebase to proof that MML cannot break firebase
That's proof of absence. Even if you'll see argument viable others won't (me including)
BZW
I did syntetic test 10 MMLs aganist UEF 2 shields and 4 TMD
https://replay.faforever.com/13322669
Cybran MML is fine 2:45
Aeon is second with more than twice time 6:15
Seraphim 7:15
UEF got caught in shield sync 11:50PS I'll try and use cybran one given a chance. Other factions - just shit
PPS I newer seen MMLs to break firebase in my plays or random replays. Usually something else happen (MML die, firebase no longer a problem, firebase got nuked, etc). -
@advena said in MMLs are terrible - Lack of competent T2 siege option contributes to turtling:
You want replay of not being able to break a firebase to proof that MML cannot break firebase
That's proof of absencei think that's just regular old proof my man
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@advena said in MMLs are terrible - Lack of competent T2 siege option contributes to turtling:
@BlackYps You want replay of not being able to break a firebase to proof that MML cannot break firebase
That's proof of absence. Even if you'll see argument viable others won't (me including)
BZW
I did syntetic test 10 MMLs aganist UEF 2 shields and 4 TMD
https://replay.faforever.com/13322669
Cybran MML is fine 2:45
Aeon is second with more than twice time 6:15
Seraphim 7:15
UEF got caught in shield sync 11:50PS I'll try and use cybran one given a chance. Other factions - just shit
PPS I newer seen MMLs to break firebase in my plays or random replays. Usually something else happen (MML die, firebase no longer a problem, firebase got nuked, etc).Make it 16-17 mml chad so the mass investment is the same.
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Anyway here, mass for mass firebase vs same mass in MML.
Also accounted for t2 pgen cost to run the shields(960 mass)
MML x16=3200 mass vs 4/5 t2 pgen 960m + x4 Tmd 1120m + x2 shield 1200m = 3280mass.So the post saying that it takes 10 fucking minutes to break this shitty firebase is straight up lying and should be removed for spreading misinformation.
Not to mention I could shave up to 20-30s on breaking the bases if I were to actually properly micro the MML... -
If TMD are in front of the shields, the TMD gets more shots off before the missiles hit the shields. That should account for some of the difference between tests by @JusticeForMantis and @advena
These tests of course are artificial. In a real game, other stuff would happen. For example you could send nothas to try to bomb the shields/TMD which might create an opportunity for MML missiles to get through, to break the firebase faster. Or you could send 30 light artillery at them.
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That's 5s to 10s change. Not important at all when I didn't even bother to micro MML properly.
I didn't bother to watch his replays nor care for cuz looking at his batshit crazy numbers is enough to say he fucked up. -
Why you take mass for p-gens in question and not take mass for T2 Land HG or MMLs defence?
We can reliably compair only mass on field vs mass on field
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Are you for real or just trying to look stupid? Cuz sure those shields will look nice when they don't have power to run on.
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@JusticeForMantis Are you for real or just to look stupid? Cuz sure those MMLs will look nice when they're dead or not ever built
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Almost like this is why you were asked to post a replay of a real game situation.
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@JusticeForMantis said in MMLs are terrible - Lack of competent T2 siege option contributes to turtling:
That's 5s to 10s change. Not important at all when I didn't even bother to micro MML properly.
I didn't bother to watch his replays nor care for cuz looking at his batshit crazy numbers is enough to say he fucked up."I didn't like his claims so I didn't look at his evidence" DansGame
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When you see someone claim that it will take 12 minutes to break a single firebase then there is no need to look at the replay.
Even more when you see that certain someone go and nonchalantly rig the test by giving the attacker 1k less mass. I can be more than sure that he also didn't bother to micro or anything too.There is literally no need to go and watch replay when it's enough to look at his post to see how fucking bad his claims are and how they have no ground.
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@FemtoZetta Replays do not back anything up. The game is multi-variate where hundreds of factors contribute to any specific successful action, not least the map and terrain.
Are we now going to claim that zooey need a huge speed and damage nerf because they destroy on small island maps?
I didn't start the thread, so why are you now making personal attacks on me?
I disagree with OP, so why are you saying I need to prove anything, and replays are not evidence. Spreadsheets are in fact better evidence than some random replay which is merely anecdotal.
From a clear mathematical standpoint MML are not overpowered. If mathematically they are not overpowered, then it really doesn't matter whether you have a replay with them stomping or not.
Next we'll have OP scout threads based on spurious replays where a 300 rated got his ACU swarmed by a smurf.~
The fact you have 2 replays showing completely different results proves my point.
What people need to do to properly test this anyway is to incorporate some MML under the shields, as counterplay, which is common.
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Can you guys stop making new stupid threads with 40 posts a day? You are never going to convince each other of anything.
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@ThomasHiatt
There is someone wrong in the internet syndrome. Can't be cured.
I still hope to see replay with good use of MMLs. Actually only real reason to post in this thread for me. Probably I should ask in different place
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For what its worth, I build MMLs so rarely that I sometimes forget they exist.
"OMG, a com is T2 PD pushing me, and my T3 land factory hasn't been started so I can't get T3 mobile arty... I should make gunships!".
I don't think it could hurt to have a stronger T2 siege unit.
I build far, far more firebeetles than I build T2 MML.
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MML are good, you forgetting they exist doesn't really change that. They easily destroy mass equivalent bases and can continue to basebreak once you defeat the critical mass buildup of TMD. The dude turtling in a firebase can't continue to turtle beyond the critical mass.
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Its at least 2, you have factor in the opportunity cost of mass lost from choosing to build a TML rather than upgrading a mex.
Note that I'm not claiming they're not OP, just that its not as simple as you're portraying it.
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@advena said in MMLs are terrible - Lack of competent T2 siege option contributes to turtling:
I still hope to see replay with good use of MMLs
Here is a ladder match with mass (more than 50) MMLs: #10225659
I did not have any success breaking the firebase in the south but I did pick off a lot of units in the north.
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No I don't lol. You lose t2 mex and you lose t2 mex reclaim. There is nothing a dude gains from getting tml'd in any way. If you kill more mass than the attack cost you, then you have a relativist mass lead.
1 T2 mex kill is all a TML needs, the opportunity cost is irrelevant, it's always good ceterus paribus.
The only opportunity cost to worry yourself about is the cost of going t2 at an early stage in the game, but this is already common on many teamgame maps anyway and serves other uses than just simple tml abuse.
