Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread
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@gabitii
t2 sub cost: 1100 mass
t2 torp cost: 270 mass
3*270 < 1100
-> Still worth suiciding the torp bombers if you assume they're just going to dieCybran Destros can't retreat in a straight line anyway cuz they stop shooting -> Either you're not going to deal dmg while doing that or you have the potential to get in range anyway if you want to escape sideway. That also requires perfect reaction timing as Auroras. Definitely always happens.
Referring to UEF Navy it's still worth it to suicide torp bombers or just build a couple of coopers since they're going to be buffed afaik. -
@sladow-noob what about stealth stuff? I have tried the beta balance patch in the sandbox and cybran destros are just way too strong against, for example, aeon and sera, even with full vision to sera, and cybran was not microed, just staying. Aeon t2 navy is just the weakest now, since the frigates dont have any AA and cruisers do not participate in the battle at all. Cybran frigs have the best AA and also their cruiser deal extra damage to the enemy. UEF and Sera on the other side are useful against tech 3, since the bships are very slow u can deal a lot of damage. Also they are useful in the siege of the base. Whereas aeon cruisers are just useless. But nevertheless I think in the combo with stealth cybran destros are way too powerful. For now I only see UEF destros that can really do smth against cybran destros, since they have a lot of HP and shield boats to tank damage when coming closer. Aeon is the weakest t2 as I see now.
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"Aeon t2 navy is just the weakest now, since the frigates dont have any AA and cruisers do not participate in the battle at all."
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@sladow-noob yeah wrong point. Aeon t2 is the weakest cause can be torped too easy... Now fine
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It's still a clowntake.
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Aeon still has both the strongest frigates and destroyers. Calling Aeon the weakest t2 navy is just so wrong on every possible level.
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How are Aeon cruisers useless? They Probably have the best AA, especially taking into account hover flak gives them spatial control in combination with their high velocity.
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Aeon still has one of the most oppressive t2 navy stages especially if you combine navy with their hover flak and shields, though I think navy for them is actually in a pretty nice spot now so I'm not saying they should be nerfed more than the frig cost change.
That said, I'm a little worried about playing UEF vs Cybran navy match up in particular pre T3, or more specifically pre full scale late game eco T3. I think too many of these balance changes are a straight buff to an already not bad Cybran navy. Reverting frig cost nerf + destro buff + implicit sub buff with torp bomber nerf seems like a lot. I nearly always use a few torps to counter t2 cybran sub aggression because making coopers early feels bad. Sure it's worth it to suicide torps math wise, but a competent opponent can very easily set it up so they get all the reclaim from the subs + torps.
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Guys just stop being so arrogant and listen to me a bit please. It is not ok that t2 destros have more range than t3 battlecruisers. Assuming that gameplay of cybran is always being hided in stealth fields it is gonna be way too op. Aeon cruiser are useless in battles I said, not useless in general. They have a good AA yes, but they never participate in battles of ships or in siege of base, like others do. I am ok with one destro having range 85 but not the cybran which is almost always in stealth. For now I see only UEF destros countering them or UEF navy in general. But still some barracudas and all the shields are down.
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@gabitii said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
It is not ok that t2 destros have more range than t3 battlecruisers.
Why is it not okay that a t3 direct fire beam weapon has less range than a t2 indirect fire artillery weapon? If you're Cybran and pumping out destros at t2 while your opponent is pumping out BCs with shield coverage, you're going to have a bad time.
Aeon cruiser are useless in battles I said, not useless in general. They have a good AA yes, but they never participate in battles of ships or in siege of base, like others do.
Aeon has t2 hover flak and shields. They arguably counter torps harder at t2 in high eco navy based games than any other faction if you're planning to have to deal with torps and prep for it. Aeon also has other tools like tempest and missile ships + strong high dps BS for shore bombardment, they don't need cruisers in the same way sera does for instance.
Assuming that gameplay of cybran is always being hided in stealth fields it is gonna be way too op.
This is where you might have a point, but I'd have to actually try it. On the fence about how this will play out and frankly I haven't played enough recently to have a bunch of t2 navy interactions with good players on the current balance, let alone enough to see how I feel about this.
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@gabitii 2 air factories on t1 scouts cancels them into oblivion.
how can you even possibly call aeon cruiers bad???? makes no sense considering they have a decent RoF and insane alpha, ofc you don't see them too often because you have hover flak+shield combo that literally is one of the strongest combo in the game against anything but ahwassa.
Aeon has by far the best destro with op torps, insane alpha and amount of hp that it has, good thing that you don't consider retreat as an option, next time you won't be having fun with cybran destro being the only one that can't shoot back, must be because it is op?
you are also wrong on so many levels about siege weapons since aeon has tempest and missle cruisers that will make you insta quit if you lose navy.
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Ok, fine, I thought it is a feedback thread, whereas this is the thread should be called "we call it balance and we do not care of what you say". I got it, no more words needed. Just do not call it "feedback" then, if u do not wanna hear any feedbacks.
Thanks @Exselsior for taking the opinion seriously.
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@gabitii Yes, it's a feedback thread. And your posts also got feedback from other players who also play the game. They aren't rude or anything. They just gave "YOU" a feedback in response to your posts which are puzzling to say the least.
Like did you expect to get ignored and be happy about it? I guess not, but I also find it seriously strange that you are mad about people engaging with your posts. Be damned if you do and damned if you don't huh?
I guess you just wanted to be acknowledged as the paragon of balance instead of actually having to defend your position and prove why you are actually correct.
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@gabitii
For me the problem is also the way you 'introduced' your opinion. You didn't say "isn't XY going to be the case?" but e.g. "Aeon t2 navy is just the weakest now". My problem with that take is simply that it shows you didn't follow any other balance discussion it seems. It's a known thing that navy has the strongest t2 navy and now even the strongest t1 navy due to all the things listed above which you didn't mention at all (e.g. t2 hover). Just looking at faction pick rates in higher ranked tourneys on navymaps is a clear indicator.
Don't get me wrong, it's totally fine to not follow all discussions or to not know every detail about the game. But then please don't try to put things as a fact. Asking rather shows you're open for changing your opinion while the way you did it doesn't.I wanna note that this is my opinion and I have no idea if others got that feeling as well though.
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@sladow-noob Well I do not have any problems of someone saying where I have been wrong, not just laughing at it. And you also introduce your opinion as a fact. "Aeon still has borh the strongest frigates and destroyers". It is where I disagree. Yes, they are stronger than any other frigate, but it is weak against t2 hover spam as well as torpedo bombers. On destros we disagree, I have understood it. But the discussion here goes mainly about t2 cybran not aeon. I don't mind having a destro with that range, but not the cybran. It is because of the stealth. It will be just so op and does not need any micro at all, you can just come a bit closer and start hitting. Even when your opponent has a good micro, it will be very tough for them to counter it. If we could consider APM as a resource if each player, than other destros would need more of it against the cybran.
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@rezy-noob why you say that aeon destros have op torps? In my opinion their torps are normal. Or did you mean depth charges? I do not consider them as op, since they can only hit underwater targets, not frigates or destros.
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Good micro? Salem is the easiest destro to micro against. It's getting the buff because at high level it's pretty well regarded as the worst destro. I'd say the recent valiant buffs probably make valiant better but you can make the case it's still worse due to the torpedo problem UEF has at t2 stage I guess.
Cybran lost their advantage at t1 navy so now against Aeon they got the worse t1, t2, and t3 stage. Getting a buff to their destro is a necessity.
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jagged should add a tier on his patreon for people who want to "have an on-stream balance discussion with jagged once a month and jagged will pretend like your ideas are good ideas"
he could make a lot of money
instead he's trying to sell people replay reviews and training lessons
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@gabitii said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
@sladow-noob Yes, they are stronger than any other frigate, but it is weak against t2 hover spam as well as torpedo bombers.
All frigates are bad against torps. Even cybran, unless they outnumber torps at least five to one. Aeon frigs are arguably the best right now against hover due to extra range, not like it matters against Cybran anyway.
It is because of the stealth. It will be just so op and does not need any micro at all, you can just come a bit closer and start hitting.
Make two factories spam T1 air scouts and the stealth is gone.
@rezy-noob why you say that aeon destros have op torps? In my opinion their torps are normal.
Aeon destro depth charges are by far the strongest of all destros, and since they ignore torp defense, they hardcounter T2 subs.
