How come you don't play ladder?

I was going to say I just don't enjoy 1v1s in general. I just prefer team games more. But Rezy & Sladow make a really good point about BO whoring. I don't know and don't feel like learning the optimal BOs for all the 1v1 maps. If there was a map-gen only 1v1 queue, I would probably actually play it.

Almost never able to get a game and when I do the odds are too high that it’s a 5x5 map or 10x10 that plays like a 5x5.

Need mapgen ladder week more often.

5x5 maps are vile. Nobody likes them except for a tiny insignificant minority. 99% of 5x5 map games only use a fraction of what the entire game has to offer. It's like asking your friend for a game of chess, but before you start the game, you take every single piece off the board except for the kings, 2 pawns each, and maybe a single knight each. Then you reduce the size of the board to just 12 squares and attempt to have a fun strategic, and interesting game.

Any dude here saying they would lose a game on ditch “due to bo” would also lose a map gen 150k reclaim/drop heavy map to the same dude tbh

@ftxcommando said in How come you don't play ladder?:

Any dude here saying they would lose a game on ditch “due to bo” would also lose a map gen 150k reclaim/drop heavy map to the same dude tbh

Press X to doubt

Yeah I’m sure Yudi outmacros u just cuz his bo is better

Harzer slaps me on any 5x5 but (without sounding too arrogant hopefully) I'm pretty sure I have very good chances when fighting him on 20x20 with a shit ton of reclaim

Comparing small 5x5 maps to large 20x20 is just insanely stupid imo since the macro-skill become way more important on the larger maps while the BO and micro dominates the smaller maps.

It stands for 5x5 map gens/premade maps too lol, nobody has a BO extending beyond 3rd fac in ladder dude people just know how gameplay will shape out and what matters.

I mentioned Ditch cuz rezy brought it up, I just find the BO complaints funny when any dude that streams ladder at high level clearly and obviously is winging it after min 3-4.

Did people forget how LotS in the past would have dudes just entirely upend meta because they actually DID sandbox BOs ie red rocks or hardshield oasis?

I'm only complaining about BOs on those 5x5 maps such as Stickleback where it indeed made a huge difference if you just had a standard BO or whored the map for a couple of times to get more tanks out earlier on.
Idc about BOs on larger 10x10 or 20x20 since you can't abuse that early advantage as hard as you can on 5x5.

Unironically just knowing how to play certain maps due to watching other replays, stealing Bully's BOs massively increased my gameplay on those maps. Same goes for literally every trainee I had.

Could you guys please argue 1 on 1 elsewhere and let hint actually get his replies at face value?

@morax no :psycho:

dont want to learn build orders for maps, play a bit more casual in team games so no interest in ladder. i dont want the fact i picked the wrong build order to be the reason im being bombed to death. guess im not competitive enough.

Well what matter the most is what you opponent is gonna do vs how you are going to respond to it on ladder saying he has better BO is just skill issue to me.

@hinthunter

• I dont because im lazy and dont wanna practice; playing ladder without trying and practicing is not something i would do. Either i try or i dont, so i cant be as relaxed while playing ladder.
• I dont want to play air + land + navy + everything, i want to have a beer and afk upgrade mexes
• Team games are more social (thats probably the number one reason)

@unknow U clearly didn't follow the 600+ message long discussion about BuildOrders on the FAF-Discord then.

He did, that’s why he got the correct conclusion.

I must say that I am with Ftx on the BO issue. It really doesn't matter that much and there are really very few people that have any BOs / any decent ones. Yes, it's true that if someone played Twin rivers 5 times and watched it on stream he will have a better early game than someone who plays it for the first time. But it's not a BO that loses you the game, it's simply map knowledge and the ability of your opponent to properly scale since he intuitively knows how much mass he will have and scales accordingly.
Also, I disagree with the idea that these "BOs" are super important on 5x5 maps. There you legitimately make couple facs and spam tanks, there is no scaling involved except for maybe grabbing some reclaim. So if you just follow the most standard fac 2 pgen 4 mex 3 pgen fac BO that you should know by now you will maybe be behind 1-2 tanks or w/e. Doesn't matter.
Don't get me wrong, ladder can be stressful and it's hard but honestly, I am a bit fed up with this whole "Can't play ladder because unless I know BO's for all the maps I auto-lose". Like seriously, I sometimes come back after months of not playing and do most random shit, stall mass min 2 or float 300 power and it's still playable. I doubt people on the ladder have such insane BOs that you can't recover with whatever mediocre "BO" you do.
Just for reference when I actually hardcore sandboxed Badlands for a couple of hours and made a BO that cut every possible corner, was nearly perfect, etc. I've got maybe 5 tanks and 1 factory more min 5-6 compared to the most basic walk to hydro, make factories and pgens, spam tanks.

Now back on topic, why I don't play ladder?

• it's hard to find games, duh.
• it's pretty tiring and stressful honestly

I stopped basically playing global games due to too much gap/astro and similar and to long lobby times. 4v4 for me works much faster and is the same fun like playing global, except being limited to 8 players :-/. 1v1 is fine as well, but a completly different story in the experience. 2v2 does not happen for me due to the lack of other players ... sadly.

Can speak for a friend as well: he never played 1v1 because taking care of everything everywhere on the map by himself is just to much for him. So he only plays 2v2 or larger team games.

• BO advantages can be massive and can be caused through BO whoring or just dumb luck (both players improvise BO, but one happens to get a good BO by chance, or happens to win the rock-paper-scissor mechanics BOs can have in 1v1: aggressive vs greed vs passive)

• "Minor" (non-)interactions like a lab finding an engineer VS missing it, a bomber only barely grazing past ur scout's radar range and proceeding to do game-winning damage, an interceptor losing a 1v1 to another interceptor, a transport only barely (not) landing, or a proxy that went unscouted for a little too long, can cause massive impacts on the game. This makes earlygame sometimes come down to pure luck

I enjoy 1v1 once it gets past minute 5-8 with even odds. Sadly this occurs very rarely and it can be seen from the fact that tons of the semi-competent ladder replays are around 15 minutes in duration (and this is ignoring time added by players continuing to play in a lost position)

@mach said in How come you don't play ladder?:

teamgames provide stability for game to get played to its fuller potential unless you are a pro that can do all of this solo while having fun doing it, it kind of seems you need to have "minimum mastery over the game" to be able to enjoy 1v1, and it seems pretty high

i agree with this too. im ~2k in 1v1 and I can only play close to full potential on 10km. Playing 15km or larger makes me feel like I'm doing a terrible job at everything. It also increases the odds of these minor interactions with potentially massive results that i was talking about earlier.
That's just personal preference though, and i do not suggest removing >10km maps from ladder.