Downsides of the Advanced Strategic Icons mod
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@jaggedappliance Oh so that what thing does
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Do the smaller icons the in the Advanced Strategic installer overlap as well? i would think they would be same, just with the different scheme they use. Also pretty simple for people to just create a file, with only the icons they want to change, like TML, radar, nuke.
Like others said, i think its mostly an issue past 1080 res.
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All modded screenshots above are with the small advanced strategic icons, so yes some of the T2 and T3 structures, and possibly others, do overlap a bit more than the base icons
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@ftxcommando I play with 30 inch 2560 x 1440 monitor but I don't have any trouble with UI elements being smaller then on 1920x1080. I can't actually imagine going back to my old resolution, the screen would just feel so cluttered.
That being sad I want to incorporate Nuke and SMD icons from the mod. The amount of times I've been nuked cause I couldn't spot the launcher (eg. Finals vs Petric in Summer Inv. 2020)... -
It really helps for me to see the TML, nukes, and I even put an A over the arty icon so i could spot it at a glance.
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WIth regards to
I think having comparison pictures that are actually at the same zoom level is a good start for an objectve comparison, lol, so thanks. I have played with modded icons for years now (but not much in general) after maybe playing without for half a year.
At the end of the day, familiarity is going to be the biggest hindrance to liking the modded icons.
Never underestimate the amount of "muscle memory" and brain stuff that is going on when you try to understand what you see in a picture. Like i would guess more than half of "how clear is that picture compared to the other picture" has nothing to do with how clear the picture actually is, but with how familiar you are with whatever the picture depicts.
And i would like a base full of ravagers and SAMs (which usually is never built in PvP in very tight clusters, area damage exits) to make it as clear as possible to me that it is full of ravagers and SAMS, so i will gladly take SLIGHTLY bigger icons / more overlap for such a case .
Now i think it could be better. Some things could be smaller. But it is right now perfectly usable in mm or anywhere else for anybody who decides to try and get used to it for some time.
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It isn't just about muscle memory. The icons are just absurdly loud and obnoxious. Why is the T3 PD big, bold, and surrounded by a giant yellow square that now has ENTIRELY blocked the sam right next to it?
In the right game state, something like this can just lose you the game because you fly your strat from your strat rush right over a sam that was hidden like a Vietnamese guerilla fighter.
Base game for comparison:
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While the borders are probably intended to help differentiate it at a glance, I agree that these borders aren't really necessary, or there is simply a better way to go about it. Maybe I'll try and modify the default icon set to bridge the gap between the two to find a happy medium. I wish the icons were vector based.
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People will always have their preferences. That said, I just started using the mod about a week ago.
I've tried it before and hated it. I tried all 3 sizes. After listening to Greedy complain about the mod not working in the dev branch, I decided to give it another shot. I'm using the small size on 2560x1440p. Now that I've given it a real chance, I easily think it's a big improvement.
It's so much easier to determine what things are now. Units, TML, SMDs, Nukes, etc. It's so easy to tell at a glance whether these things are around or not, rather than searching through shit. If unit spam being a bit undistinguishable is why some people don't wanna use it, power to them but that idc about that. I'll just zoom in a bit and look if I need to.
"Oh but now you need to zoom in!" Sure. And without the mod I need to zoom in a hell of a lot more than I do with the mod.
Could they be improved further? Probably. But I like them more than the default shit so far.
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Frankly I think it's a totally irrational position to argue that you would need to zoom in more to see literally anything with default icons. Do you need to spend more time looking for things because the icons are not as loud and you aren't used to them? Sure. But there are zero scenarios where default icons obfuscate a situation that requires zooming in while the mod doesn't. The whole point is to make icons too annoying to ignore which in turn creates lack of clarity when you have 10 of them jumbled together.
If the scenario exists, feel free to post examples.
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The icon mod does not provide a gameplay advantage, and very likely is actually detrimental to your gameplay.
Every pro at the game either uses all default icons or mostly default icons, and the chance of the icon mod providing a gameplay advantage is slim to none, given that the pros are the best at the game precisely because they are the people most likely to take advantage of things that can provide a gameplay advantage.
As a counterexample, look at the advanced strategic priorities mod. Almost every pro uses it, and some of the very best have gone as far as to set 10+ target priority hotkeys on the most premium hotkeys. That is what would happen if the mod actually provided a gameplay advantage, so it's almost impossible that the icon mod provides a gameplay advantage and all the pros are just all sleeping on it.
If it were the case that using full icon mod was is a matter of personal preference, with no gameplay impact, you would expect some pros to use it. The fact that literally no good player uses the full icon mod should suggest that it is actually a gameplay detriment.
My personal view is that you can use whatever setup you prefer and play the game the way that you enjoy, but just be cognizant of the fact that using the full icon mod very likely provides a gameplay disadvantage.
I'll just list the people I'm aware of on each side of the debate. As far as I am concerned, there is an overwhelming consensus among experts on this topic.
People who use full icon mod:
- Ruvik
- Katharsas
- Wainan
- Cheeseberry
People who use mostly default icons (only advanced SML/SMD, etc.)
- ThomasHiatt
- me
- Tagada (when he gets around to it)
People who use full default icons:
- Blackheart
- JaggedAppliance
- Blodir
- Swkoll
- and literally every other top player in the game
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Maybe "need" isn't the right word. But there are times I prefer to zoom into a part of the map or section of it, whatever, to scan it rather than look at it all the way zoomed out. I haven't noticed or felt any downsides to playing with the mod,
I mean, the game has strategic zoom for a while, so people can zoom in and out as they please. It takes next to no effort, and with Zep's minimap there's no reason not to notice shit going on outside your FOV when zoomed in. I'm constantly zooming in & out.
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Some of us can't see sh*t wether we're zoomed in or not, so might as well at least be able to tell if there is a nuke, tml, but it's all preference. its not like we're debating on adding these icons to main game.
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I don’t really like the pro player rationale because mainly that proves that default icons are not a detriment rather than modded icons being a detriment. If you are a dude with thousands of hours, you have gotten damn used to the default icons and have no problem telling them apart. Why would you then go and spend the dozens of hours to go get used to new icons that are supposed to make the game more clear when you have entirely adjusted to the default icons? It’s a larger time investment for less gain compared to something like target priorities.
Now if the icon mod was at parity with default icons, you would expect that as it becomes more popular (nearly never saw it talked about prior to 2019 or so) that new high level players would begin to use the stuff. If it made adjusting to get information at a glance quicker, more new top players should be utilizing it. I also notice that a lot of the SMD/TMD icon mod dudes are the players that began to shape up around this era of FAF.
This makes me think that these two schools of thought are generally equal in performance, but I have yet to see anyone play with the full mod at tournament level. Maybe new top level players will show up that fully use the mod to show off that it has hardly any impact who knows.
BUT I imagine that a lot of the more recent top players that have some of the icon mod have tried out the full mod before modifying it themselves, which is probably a bad sign for the viability of the unadjusted mod.
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Can't stand the engies, everything else is ok
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I don't understand how highlighting an SMD, SML, TMD or TML and maybe mobile shields / stealth fields can ever be detrimental to your gameplay: you don't have to search for them anymore.
I've played with the icons mod for all my time on FAF, and recently got a new development computer and am still playing without. Still can't find anything of relevance in a base without spending a few seconds scanning it when zoomed in. Surely there's better things to do than that
.Icon size can be changed - if they overlap too much you make them smaller. If you don't like some icons then you take them out. I could even see removing the mass storage icons all together as all they do is make me miss-click for the extractor when zoomed out. With the next patch adjusting your icons will become easier than ever as they can be part of a UI mod if I recall correct.
A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned
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Playing devils advocate, which was the entire point of the thread to begin with, the argument against highlighting goes as follows:
- It may highlight the wrong things.
- Highlighting makes the screen more noisy, making it harder to find the bits of information you are actually looking for.
- If you live and breathe the default icons, some people straight up don't need highlighting at all. Or to quote Jagged from the discord conversation yesterday: "i literally never have a problem making out any units when i play the game"
As should be clear by now I don't agree with that assessment, possibly because I'm just blind as a bat, but I can understand it. It's basically just an expression of personal preference for or against highlighting.
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Imo icons like SML, SMD, TML, TMD ARE hard to spot, whenever I play team games and I need to manage multiple bases I task my dead team mates with finding that stuff because locating a nuke launcher in a cluttered base can take 1 second but can also take 10. I had situations in 1vs1 games where I scanned the base specifically for an SML and didn't spot it aftet like 5 seconds of looking which made the game significantly harder.
However the unit and other buildings icons are just too cluttery for me while I never have any problems with reading the base icons in these situations playing fully zoomed out on 2k resolution. -
In general, the argument "more peple use X, so it must be better" is just one of the most common logical fallacies. There is no reason for this to be true. One thing doesn't follow from the other, like at all.
Fomr the single obervation:
""more high rated people use default icons than modded icons"you try to conjur causality:
"the only possible reason for this is that the icons are bad"whithout even considering that other reasons for this probably exist.
Most people use what is given to them without changing the defaults. If the deffaults are bad they might or might not notice. They might or might not be aware of alternatives. They might or might not be aware of the options that those alternatives provide.
Once people are invested, they might no longer switch to better icons because of their investment.
If you haven't noticed:
The whole point of this thread is to stop with subjective arguments and fallacies like "these people dont like it so its probably bad" and to use objective arguments instead to actually find the true pros and cons of modded icons.Please read this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populumNow, if you had proper data:
- Percentage of lower rated players using modded icon
- Percentage of higher rated players using modded icon
then you could filter that based on date when first game was played so you get a comparable distribution for when those playsers started playing on FAF.
And only then could we start comparing those percentages to try to find out wether usage of modded icons increases with time or with rating or not. But even then you could still not find good causations becasue the mentioned fallacy still applies.
The absolute percentage of how many high rated players use something however has absolutely no value and your argument is just completely invalid.
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@jip said in Downsides of the Advanced Strategic Icons mod:
I don't understand how highlighting an SMD, SML, TMD or TML and maybe mobile shields / stealth fields can ever be detrimental to your gameplay: you don't have to search for them anymore.
I know of nobody that considers spare use of icons to make notable structures more obvious to be bad. That requires personally changing game files though, which most people aren’t going to do.
