2v2 Full Share means: Eco > Snipes, Luck and Unit Skill

Valki

Red (map total): 38 strikers, 1 pillar, 14 lobo
Grey (map total): 24 Aurora, 3 fervor, 2 bombers
Grey ACU kills Red ACU: https://replay.faforever.com/14613239
Team Red wins the game
Outnumbered Victory.png

Problem
Sniping an ACU is always good in 1v1, and almost always good in global. In 2v2 it has no effect. The (surviving) units and structures pass to the ally. The ACU explosion destroys the attacking army of one player.

Especially for beginners the game is not some grand eco and wisdom game, but closer to:

???
Gunships!
Profit

People who rely on snipes, or if you'll allow great unit micro, have no benefit of their "one" skill in the game. Luck is also inconsequential.

Greater problem imho
2v2 is less rewarding to low-rated snipe and luck reliant players than it would be with regular game rules (= Share Until Death). This probably affects its popularity at least at low rating.

Solution
Set 2v2 to "Share Until Death".

Justification
Snipes and ACU death are a core aspect of this game. It should be relevant especially in a competitive matchmaker for quick games.

There is nothing wrong with a snowball victory after an ACU kill, games need to end anyway. People join TMM to play 2v2, it is fine for the game to usually end quickly after becoming 2v1. When the game is over, you can join a new one.

Exselsior

If all people are of equal skill the team with two acus should have a large advantage. If you’re not an apm god it’s really hard to properly manage two bases, especially when they’re different factions, and fight on multiple fronts. Sniping is still very valuable as long as you’re not doing something like sniping a 1k player when their teammate is 2k. I’ve won 2v2s with snipes when both enemy players were more skilled than myself. Personally I think it’s not fun to just have the game be over if my teammate trolls or whatever. It also feels a little less bad if I’m the one who trolls if my teammate gets my stuff. With full share there’s a chance I can still win though not necessarily a good one, without it not so much. It’s not about quick games, it’s about good ones.

Blodir

Acu death is certainly not irrelevant. Acu is the most powerful unit on the field until experimentals and eliminating it allows you to push with impunity.

The_Janitor

"Snipes and ACU death are a core aspect of this game. It should be relevant especially in a competitive matchmaker for quick games.

There is nothing wrong with a snowball victory after an ACU kill, games need to end anyway. People join TMM to play 2v2, it is fine for the game to usually end quickly after becoming 2v1. When the game is over, you can join a new one."

Games do end, it seems like you have a problem not ending how you imagined it, hoping you can kill a weak player and the stronger player will just fallow suit.

2v2 is less rewarding to low-rated snipe and luck reliant players than it would be with regular game rules (= Share Until Death). This probably affects its popularity at least at low rating.
-Yes. It should be less rewarding, it should be more about team gameplay rather than soloing and putting hope it will be enough.

"Sniping an ACU is always good in 1v1, and almost always good in global. In 2v2 it has no effect. The (surviving) units and structures pass to the ally. The ACU explosion destroys the attacking army of one player.

Especially for beginners the game is not some grand eco and wisdom game, but closer to:

1.)???
2:)Gunships!
3.)Profit"

Gameplay advice, scout and play accordingly. You are still gonna have more t1 spam then your opponent who just died.

And now after watching the game you kind of deserved to lose that, you have not full scouted his base not even once while your ally was struggling with his opponent. You have done just about nothing to help him out while you where losing units and giving mass away to your opponent i suppose it was a surprise to you when he attacked back from the spot you attacked him lol. Stayed in the middle without ever knowing what your opponent had, good riddance.

Valki

@exselsior You say both that sniping the weaker of 2 players might be an disadvantage to you under certain conditions, and you say that this encourages trolling which I interpret as high risk high reward pushes.

@blodir said in 2v2 Full Share means: Eco > Snipes, Luck and Unit Skill:

Acu death is certainly not irrelevant. Acu is the most powerful unit on the field until experimentals and eliminating it allows you to push with impunity.

I don't know if you have seen (part of) the replay, but how was this ACU death relevant?

Auriko

In my opinion share until death is only OKish when the map is some kind of Canis 5v5 map : player spawns close to each other, easy defendable chokepoints, impossible for the ennemy to come and snag the reclaim of your mate base.

Having full share allows to play maps like Sirgis, where spawns are very far apart and death doesn't mean auto lose. Tbh current map pool has map that would work just fine in share until death, but you get my point.

I'd argue as well that the attention needed to manage two bases, and the disadvantage of not having 2 ACU (and being afraid to use yours because you have only one left) are already crippling enough to make snipes worthy of the effort. Choosing share until death is just choosing a gameplay where snipe is more dominant (and where everybody complains about mercy snipes being dumb ...).

I can understand that people are used to the share until death meta, but i'd vote for full share for tmm.

Exselsior

@valki it doesn’t encourage trolling, I just mean that if my teammate suicides I have at least a fighting chance even though I’m at a big disadvantage in terms of both apm and firepower being down an acu

Auriko

Maybe the problem of "one guys sits back and win by doing nothing but absuing double eco" is just a map problem : it's very easy to do that on Fields of Isis, but more open maps are way more difficult to manage.

JazzFunkNoob

First off: Just relying on sniping is not good strategy and it is not desired that low rated players only know how to use that strategy. You will just put yourself into a dead end if you only focus on one strategy as a beginner. So from a game director perspective it is good to not allow single strategies to stand out, especially on a lower level.

A t2 air snipe usually is a massinvestment of 3k mass, which needs to be quite early in the game. Doing in a 1v1 usually means you will loose so much map control that you will autoloose the game if your snipe fails. So it is more of a last resort/ meme strat. In a 2v2 the frontline is more densely populated with ACUS which makes it less of a setback diverting resources into a snipe. And a snipe without Fullshare would still win you the game in 99% of the cases. So it is as effective as in a 1v1 with a lot less risk involved.

A snipe with fullshare is still very viable though. Even the best player is very voulnerable for the next minute after loosing his teammate. He has to take over the base and redivert units to fill the gap his teammates ACU left. This is when you must make your moves. Army movements force a reaction of your opponent, diverting his attention from managing the new base, arty drops have a very high chance to make it into your opponents base and causing huge damage. Snipes in 2v2 full share don't win you the game, but they win you the initiative wich usually is key to winning games.

Dragun101

As evidence watch all 5 SCTA showmatch games played with Fullshare after first commander death. While some cases both players died togethor. Other cases you see how much it actually mattered

veteranashe

With share until death you only need to kill one acu to win, and it's not very fun when your teammates acu gets killed.

With fullshare when your teams acu gets killed your seriously fed for about the next 5 mins and if you hold out and figure everything out then it's just a 2v1 after that.

Share until death on tmm makes it unplayable unless every map is astro.

If you want 2v2 share until death, nothing stops you from starting a lobby

Exselsior

@veteranashe said in 2v2 Full Share means: Eco > Snipes, Luck and Unit Skill:

With share until death you only need to kill one acu to win, and it's not very fun when your teammates acu gets killed.

Correct, this is what I was talking about a bit more since I knew other people would talk more from the vantage of the one doing the sniping.

With fullshare when your teams acu gets killed your seriously fed for about the next 5 mins and if you hold out and figure everything out then it's just a 2v1 after that.

You don’t get fed, you lose every single unit in production in your teammates factories. You have to restart all production, redo all engineer orders, redo all movement commands, shore up the hole created from acu explosion, possibly now stop 2 gun coms with one, etc. You don’t magically have more eco than the other two players unless your teammate was quite far ahead. As other people have said, it’s not “just a 2v1.” 2v1s aren’t magically easy.

Don’t believe me then see if you can find some high rated shared army gameplay to see just how hard it is vs double apm even without the massive handicap of one acu vs two. I feel like I remember watching Yudi going full sweat vs maybe two 1800-2k players using shared armies and losing at the end despite being better than his opponents and having an apm so high I barely keep up just watching. This isn’t exactly the same but it helps show some of why it’s hard to 2v1 unless it’s a very closed off map.

Valki

@hinthunter said in 2v2 Full Share means: Eco > Snipes, Luck and Unit Skill:

Games do end, it seems like you have a problem not ending how you imagined it, hoping you can kill a weak player and the stronger player will just fallow suit.

The expectation in a 2v2 is that "1 down, 1 to go" is a major step to victory. Unmet expectations are a minor detriment to the game experience.

@auricocorico said in 2v2 Full Share means: Eco > Snipes, Luck and Unit Skill:

I'd argue as well that the attention needed to manage two bases, and the disadvantage of not having 2 ACU (and being afraid to use yours because you have only one left) are already crippling enough to make snipes worthy of the effort.

Also at <1000 level?
Getting the 2nd base, with all factories engineers and upgrades off, fixes your eco 80% of the time. Then it is easy to divert some of that eco into your upgrades.

Choosing share until death is just choosing a gameplay where snipe is more dominant (and where everybody complains about mercy snipes being dumb ...).

I can understand that people are used to the share until death meta, but i'd vote for full share for tmm.

"The Council" made a decision to deviate from the norm, which is Share Until Death.

@dragun101 said in 2v2 Full Share means: Eco > Snipes, Luck and Unit Skill:

As evidence watch all 5 SCTA showmatch games played with Fullshare after first commander death. While some cases both players died togethor. Other cases you see how much it actually mattered

What rating were these players?

@exselsior said in 2v2 Full Share means: Eco > Snipes, Luck and Unit Skill:

@veteranashe said in 2v2 Full Share means: Eco > Snipes, Luck and Unit Skill:
[...] Yudi going full sweat vs maybe two 1800-2k players using shared armies [...]

Again, high-rated opinions and examples.

If 10% of players are high rated and like this, then why should a much larger portion of low-rated who might not like it play like this. I don't know, but indications I get (ingame chat) are mostly negative and neutral.

Would it be possible, to run a poll by all active TMM players to settle the question of their preferences?

Dragun101

Valki:
1.7k
2 1.9k
1 2.4k

Also contrary to popular belief the norm isn't share until death (okay it is but let me explain), originally the way it worked any unit under control of the player who died at the point of death was lost. However any unit transferred before point of death was however NOT lost. Now what does this mean? People in day of GPG would donate there donate base then com bomb or something and same effect of fullshare was achieved.

Secondary every TA inspired game also uses some version of Full Share in team games. So FA odd man out in many ways.

ZLO

imho full share can often be about clever ways to suicide your ACU.
in the 2v2 tournament i remember opponent suiciding his ACU and pulling his army away and then winning the game with his army.

Valki

@zlo said in 2v2 Full Share means: Eco > Snipes, Luck and Unit Skill:

imho full share can often be about clever ways to suicide your ACU.
in the 2v2 tournament i remember opponent suiciding his ACU and pulling his army away and then winning the game with his army.

This sounds an argument against Full Share

veteranashe

@exselsior said in 2v2 Full Share means: Eco > Snipes, Luck and Unit Skill:

@veteranashe said in 2v2 Full Share means: Eco > Snipes, Luck and Unit Skill:

With share until death you only need to kill one acu to win, and it's not very fun when your teammates acu gets killed.

Correct, this is what I was talking about a bit more since I knew other people would talk more from the vantage of the one doing the sniping.

With fullshare when your teams acu gets killed your seriously fed for about the next 5 mins and if you hold out and figure everything out then it's just a 2v1 after that.

You don’t get fed, you lose every single unit in production in your teammates factories. You have to restart all production, redo all engineer orders, redo all movement commands, shore up the hole created from acu explosion, possibly now stop 2 gun coms with one, etc. You don’t magically have more eco than the other two players unless your teammate was quite far ahead. As other people have said, it’s not “just a 2v1.” 2v1s aren’t magically easy.

Don’t believe me then see if you can find some high rated shared army gameplay to see just how hard it is vs double apm even without the massive handicap of one acu vs two. I feel like I remember watching Yudi going full sweat vs maybe two 1800-2k players using shared armies and losing at the end despite being better than his opponents and having an apm so high I barely keep up just watching. This isn’t exactly the same but it helps show some of why it’s hard to 2v1 unless it’s a very closed off map.

Hey, little typo, not fed, f'ed, or screwed, James, fucked, etc just like you describe lol