T2 torpedo turrets are awful
-
And why does that make sense? How has it improved gameplay to have 85 range torp launchers?
-
Agreed would be nice for a range boost (so they have at least the same range as the best destroyer range but cruisers and battleships would outrange them), - could always buff the Aeon cruiser range slightly since its a weak attack anyway to compensate/provide Aeon with a T2 counter. That way there'd both be more unit variety and unit counterplay.
Land combat has T2 PD that outranges T2 tanks, but is outranged by another T2 unit (MMLs), which in turn can be defended against with TMD, and the game feels more interesting with that as an option than if say T2 PD were outranged by T2 tanks. Even with fixed shields being buildable on land to cover T2 PD, and T2 arti being available (that outrange any land unit) firebases aren't oppressive (while for naval maps outside of protecting your naval factory and the occasional pond with a chokepoint, there'd be less value from a 'naval firebase' than on land, so less risk of it being too powerful).
Another nice sideeffect is it'd provide a potential (defensive) counter option to sera subhunters (who currently outrange torpedo launchers other than HARMs)
-
Buffing T2 torps range will disadvantage Cybran navy (unless you buff it up to 70-80). Also, doing this leads to increasing already good range of HARMS (otherwise, what's the point). That's why I suggested making them movable, as it makes them a bit more versatile.
By the way, these two options are not mutually exclusive - why not both?
-
Why is it just being implicitly taken to be a good thing that more static navy gameplay is a great thing? Why would you even bother with uef destros if uef had a 85 range (salems outrange cyb cruisers btw) t2 torp launcher?
Why do you need more reason to make cruisers again? Why are people talking about unit mix as though navy isn’t the most healthy theater of the game in terms of unit mix already? How is buffing torp launchers that already currently are problematic for sera destros, will obsolete uef destros, and god knows what else to aeon/cyb gameplay a good change?
-
If anything td p2 are op and should be nerfed. The current balance for t2 torps is way healthier for gameplay and theyre not bad to make at all
-
Do you have any high rated replays of T2 torpedo defence being built? Might be good to have some context in what situations you might want to build them
-
@FtXCommando okay, let me re-explain. My point is NOT that T2 torps are weak / underpowered.
My main point is that T2 torps should be changed. They rarely appear in games, and are mostly built by new players, by my experience. Now, T2 torps just do not fit in navy battle kit available for players. And there are very few units/building that are that misfitting. Can you disagree with that?
What's the change is a different question. Personally, I prefer movability over range. It's not a big buff, but makes T2 torps more versatile (moving towards to halt the enemy attack temporarely, supporting your attack, intercepting incoming annoying t1 subs on maps like dual gap, micro them to avoid some fire, etc.). Right now, they are just a static obstacle which says "hit me with your t2 destroyers / cruisers a bit before entering my pond". Compare these two situation. How it a better gameplay? In my opinion, first one (imaginary, yes) provides richer decision-making both for you and your opponent.
Also, in my opinion, this quite fits overall idea of balance in FAF: it's quite uniform, but almost all units have some quirks that distinguish them across races / tech tiers. Let T2 now-static torp launchers have their time to shine, their place to fit in the players' toolkits. Now, they are like t1 torps, but crappier.
-
@Saver Please do! It would be interesting to actually test it out.
-
@rampeer ok, I will create a mod for this test in the coming week . Is there an estimation of what speed the launchers should get? similar to the T3 Sonar? or lower?
-
Destroyer speed is 5, Cruisers and T3 sonar speeds are 4.5 (I was surprised by these numbers, btw). Battleships speed is 3-ish.
Giving T2 turrets same speed as cruisers / more than battleships seems a bit too much (picture a battleship running from a flock of T2 torp launchers - it's funny but not right).
What about 2.5?
*Just realized that the thread is not in the balance-related forum. Oops
-
M maudlin27 moved this topic from Suggestions on
-
Hello,
I finished my terrace earlier today, so I had time for the mod. I tested the speed at 2.5 and found it to be too fast for what should be a stationary setup. I have therefore set the speed to 1.You can also test the mod yourself. It is now on FAF.
mobile T2 Torpedo Launcher
-
Just FYI - all T2 torp defense also have personal stealth so if moveable they will not show on radar / sonar after you lose vision of them… this would actually make them more useful as (semi) static defense if they had very slow speed (0.1 is minimum I believe)
-
@Blade_Walker it would be annoying to micro
-
Will try with bots ASAP!
Did not know t2 turrets have stealth (checked unit DB, it's true). But as it's a building, once spotted (by air scout, for example) the radar blip will always remain while it's in the zone of a radar - right? Sounds like a strange feature
The more this thread goes on, the more I discover. They are half the price of a destroyer for about the same HP and DPS; not all factions' destroyers outrange T2 torps; they have steath. Maybe underutilization is just a meta thing?
-
So, I played a couple of games with movable torp launchers. Here are my findings.
@Saver Thank you a lot!
@Sainse : you are correct. Despite being very slow, turning speed allows maneuvering them around enemies with ease (especially given stealth). Maybe nerfing turning speed will help that.
To sum up:
- It's too easy to kite with them, given high turning speed. That's bad, as I described above.
- They seem fast enough and just shred T1 crap. Movespeed is enough to move turrets in range and intercept units trying to get these juicy engie kills. That's good.
- They seem too slow to be in right position during attack. Maybe it's good: their slow speed gives away their trajectory and position, and to effectively push using them, one has to decide: push now, and bombard engineers / factories using current army, OR: push a bit later, wait for T2 torps for extra power.
- T2 torps guarantee you safe retreat (after failed push, as they can kite, unless it's due to enemy T2 torp bombers). Another strategic use!
So, I think it's beneficial buff, but it requires some tuning. Movable long-range bombardment tools with stealth are OP now.
-
Dear balance team -- take a note, please.
It might work.
-
You do realise the entire identity of static defenses is that... they're static right? If they're too weak (which they aren't) they should be buffed in a more logical way
-
You are right... it will a movable defence then! Other ways to buff seem to break the game in one way or another, as discussed above
-
If the torp defense is mobile, and most of them have radar stealth, will they re-stealth once they are outside of vision range after some time? That alone could make them interesting, but depending on how fast they move, if they can fire while moving, etc, then why make subs? The range increase would destabilize naval balance for sure. Perhaps with all of the variables that exist in naval play, it shouldn't mimic the way land plays. Subs, amphibious, surface, hover and air can all play a part in the water. There are also no turrets that shoot at the surface that also float on the surface. I've seen mods that have things like that, it throws everything off. Shield towers don't exist on the water either.
Personally, I'd say increase their health, make them stick around for a while longer. No one wants to run up on a bunch of T2 torpedo turrets, shoot them at a distance because it's safe. What if it bought more time?
-
They’re literally already good
