Why does everything suck so much right now?
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@Katharsas I agree with 95% of what you're writing. Thank you for taking the time and effort to write it. It helps a lot with my sanity
.@ftxcommando said in Why does everything suck so much right now?:
I do find it funny that I just had to read like half a dozen point (...)
Another perfect example of a rude, unnecessary harmful and empty message with nothing but your opinion to work with. At the same time you indirectly attack the current contributors by stating we do not engage honestly. You derail the conversation by introducing vague statements with no references that I'm not going to put in the effort to debunk.
@ftxcommando said in Why does everything suck so much right now?:
I’ll just utilize the same line Jip used when referring to his attack on Tagada’s ability to be a contributor and tell people to read and get a conclusion for themselves. Inevitability, as always, people will see the harm of their opponent and not the harm of their supporters.
I'll help you with that, here's a link to the cherry-picked conversation discord conversation. Have a read for those that are interested, again make sure to read everything that was posted the 9th of June.
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Popcorn time
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Dunno what to tell you Jip. Area reclaim is like one of the most historical arguments on FAF. People have been against it on the aspect of principle, beyond even mechanics, since all the way back in 2014. The step of collecting some consensus on the principles was totally skipped over and development went into mechanics and now there is an attempt to work backwards and somehow fit the mechanics into principles that state it as fundamentally anathema. A lot of headache would have been resolved if you could have convinced people on how area reclaim creates some new strategic opening on FAF but instead all the people that have always not liked it now heard of an implementation and how it’s in faf develop and how there is now a game dev team vote to implement it.
Working backwards to accommodate principles was just not going to work on this specific problem.
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Why on earth is that rude and unproductive when he has been insulted all these times for being critical.
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We are hesitant to police these threads:
So that fact I raise a query about moderation and say a swear word means its deleteable?
If this post is removed please let it be known that likely Maudlin is censoring topics that could reflect negatively.
If your worried about swearing Maudlin go police a 500 rated dual gap game.
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The above is literally my prime example for why "Faf sucks right now"
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Those points combined meant your post was deleted, (although I checked with another mod first to check they agreed it clearly crossed the line). While some points (swearing) should be self-explanatory, I didn’t think it worth going into detail here on other points such as the falsehoods you were spreading about moderation actions since it would both derail the thread and because as a general rule specific reports that have been moderated aren’t intended to be discussed publicly.
If you find yourself playing games containing toxic language then please feel free to raise a report in the client.
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Why have a thread that says don't have a pr answer and then you silence someone for swearing. Also the author of this thread wrote a curse word are you going to take down his post?
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@ftxcommando said in Why does everything suck so much right now?:
A lot of headache would have been resolved if you could have convinced people on how area reclaim creates some new strategic opening on FAF but instead all the people that have always not liked it now heard of an implementation and how it’s in faf develop and how there is now a game dev team vote to implement it.
I don't know what to tell you either.
The entire process was natural. A feature that is both wanted and unwanted was proposed and discussed together with both the game and the balance team. A prototype was created. Almost nobody has a development environment, that you can learn about here, therefore it was pushed to FAF Develop. That is exactly why we have FAF Develop - to try and see how things work. Some people did try it. An iteration was made. Some people discussed it again. Another iteration was made. This time there was not just a public Discord discussion about it, but also a forum post. It was discussed again. The game team voted on it based on the current state and we decided not to ship it in its current state.
This all seems very natural to me. And from the outside it is. But what a lot of people do not see, and what is clearly visible in this forum topic, is what Katharses describes:
@katharsas said in Why does everything suck so much right now?:
- "Lol devs ruining the game once again"
- "Lol devs not knowing how the game works once again"
- "Im not gonna explain what i dont like because its useless anyway, <insert untrue sarcastic argument that their opinion is being oppressed/ignored anyway>"
- "Why are you even here typing as though you even matter with your stupid contributive mentality lol, go away."
- "you are deliberatley mutilating the game"
- "this is absolutely terrible, no wonder FAF is dying"
- "i haven't tried it but i already know without a doubt its gonna be absolutely aweful"
- <insert dismissive "funny" comment here>
That is bitching, bickering und bashing, not arguing. People talking like this have no desire to actually discuss anything, this tone is just used to shoot down something or somebody, usually in the hope that some buddies will come along and also bitch and bash it strongly enough for it to go away. Of course there are people that don't do this. And of course there are also players that are not high level that do this.
But if you are a high level player and long time FAF community member and you do this, than i have to assume that the reason you talk like this is because you just bash against changes out of reflex which is where my skill-investment argument comes from (or alternatively that you just like to not behave like a decent human being, which is actually worse).
Changes to the game are reasonably well communicated, and the reasonably presented arguments get heard. Sometimes you get the feeling that some people think they are "victim" to all the oppresive changes "imposed" on them.
And i don't doubt that some people have managed to warp their own sense of reality so much that they actually think they are being mistreated somehow. Sadly, self-victimization is en-vouge everywhere today, but it still an incredibly shitty attitude and it deserves to get called out whenever it is seen.
This happened all over. It was a change that I wanted people to give an honest try. Some did, but some people who joined the discussions were there with the only intention to bash, bicker and bitch about it. They did not try the feature. They only attacked the person, his character and his intentions.
Again, I don't know what to tell you. I think the entire process was fine. And all the bickering that some people did was totally unproductive, unnecessary and uncalled for.
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You highly exaggerated how many people were in favor of this for one. Secondly those that are in favor of it do not understand the game. Thirdly you have constantly misused what we are arguing. If it was just a bad idea we wouldn't have gotten mad. Also more curse words maudlin pls remove them!
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Oh no someone dared to ask about moderation action.
Delete the post.
The sky is falling.
The end has come.
If stating my personal experience with the mod team is considered "insider information" then we got a bigger problem.
Now considering the stuff said in other peoples messages, I find it personally offensive that my post was targeted.
As such please restore it.
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Oh no guys another mean rude unproductive argument!
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The links you posted are exactly the problem I’m talking about. The entire early implementation process happened on github. Github is not a place that is going to work out well for a discussion on principles, because it’s completely opaque to a general user. Nobody can navigate it or figure out where to find what they need. It’s constantly after the fact. This is why there is like 6(?) people involved in all your links and the majority are game or balance team contributors.
Which brings me to the balance team point. I have no clue when the balance team specifically got involved in the conversation here but I do know this feature was definitely not getting some flying color consensus. I think I was told like one guy openly supported it? Surely this should have been a red flag to check out community onboarding with whether this feature is a good idea for the game.
Both the Discord and especially the Forum thread are will into the dynamic I was talking about where principles are attempted to be shoehorned into the mechanics. It’s about making something people view as bad for the game less bad instead of first figuring out if it is good enough to warrant a mechanical discussion on something like github.
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The initial discussion was on Discord in the balance team channels. Those channels are private. It is not my choice that those are private, so how can it be my problem?
I'd be nice if you'd ask what happened instead of endlessly describing what you think happened based on your imagination, as a reference to one of my earlier posts.
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J Jip referenced this topic on
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How that not rude sarcastic and unproductive
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You just told me the process and I took it at face value. I then proceed to say where I have no idea when someone was involved and what was information I was operating from with hearsay.
This is the part where I match the passive aggression I have been talking about by saying maybe you should just do a better job explaining the whole story. Very tedious. Can only assume the exclusion of this balance team segment showcases how much care was put into their input!
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@ftxcommando said in Why does everything suck so much right now?:
You just told me the process and I took it at face value. I then proceed to say where I have no idea when someone was involved and what was information I was operating from with hearsay.
This is the part where I match the passive aggression I have been talking about by saying maybe you should just do a better job explaining the whole story. Very tedious.
No, you proceeded to spill your imagination on what you think happened and molted that into a forum post that you presented as the truth but is in fact just miss information, gossip and what not. It is not the first time you did this either.
You could have just asked for more details. It's one line of text. And I would have given it to you.
The entire process was and is as transparent as it could have been at the time. That you feel like 'the community' was not included is because during the development of a feature it is in fact difficult to do so. Even though the feature was on FAF Develop and there were sufficient games with sufficient exposure to a wider audience.
Luckily for you, the game team channels are all public to view and nobody else but @IndexLibrorum and @Fichom are discussing whether this process should be different in the future. You can read up about that on Discord.
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I've kind of said all this before, and it is essentially an anti-FAF post. But I am curious about what motivates talented people like @Jip to add features to mainline FAF rather than creating a fork, mod, or their own game.
In my opinion, if you are a good programmer and smart game designer (or think that you are) you should work on your own game instead of contributing features to this community of people who don't want your features. It sounds like a very mean thing to say, but I really don't know why people want to contribute to FAF. I have decent programming skills, have watched/read a massive quantity of game design things on the internet, know a lot about FAF, and am even one of the highest-rated players on FAF. Outside of some very brief moments of delusion, I never considered contributing to FAF to be a reasonable thing to do.
Even if all your ideas are truly amazing and make the game way better, it will still be a dead 20-year-old game. You will get no merit or money or anything for your effort. Everyone will be mean to you on the forum no matter what, and you end up in miserable forum threads like this one. The only benefit I see with contributing to FAF is that you have a pre-existing captive audience, so it is to some degree impossible to fail and you can feel like a smart and successful person and get fans and whatever. The downside is that this preexisting audience is old people playing an old game, so you can't treat it like your own early-access indie title. If you do the bare minimum to keep the project alive it will probably go fine, but even if executed perfectly, getting feedback and implementing new things will have large amounts of friction.
There are finally some reasonable competitors coming along to fill FAF's niche place in the market. Either work on one of them or start your own. Or make something totally different. You will probably still be subjected to the same toxicity as here, but at least you will have your own thing, make money from it, and leave your mark on the world. When I'm not too lazy and depressed to work on stuff, I work on my own little game project. If I ever release a game, I fully expect to encounter toxic assholes like myself, but since it's my own game I can just do whatever I want and tell them to fuck off.
In my twisted view of the world, the toxicity of FAF is somewhat beneficial because driving talented people away to make new things is better than having them contribute to this dead-end project. I thought the people working on [redacted] were pretty cringe and annoying, but since they went off to try their own thing I have a lot of respect for them and look forward to seeing what they accomplish.
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There is one thing that should be made crystal clear:
FAF, as a game, does not suck.
The numbers for monthly games and users don't lie- people love playing the game, the network issues are trending back to stability. The maintainers and contributors to the game have done an excellent job in ensuring this game lives on.
Where FAF sucks, then, is elsewhere. Community, expectations, and the experiences of the people who have given the most to the game. It sucks for the dedicated players, the ones who have given the most of their time to the game over the years. It sucks for contributors on every level, from news crew, to game team, to map makers, to modders. Why?
In my opinion, it's because there's a gross disconnect between the expectations of where FAF is and should be going. I believe there was a period of stagnancy after massive changes, such as the engy mod integration, where the meta ideas of FAF stabilised. Jip is not incorrect when he says the first year of work he did mostly aligned with what people expected of FAF and where it should go. But other, bigger changes see much more resistance because the massive majority of pro and casual players got used to the meta developed by the relatively stagnant periods of development.
In my mind, it's a good opportunity for everyone invested to step back and thoroughly evaluate not only their expectations for FAF but what others expect too. FAF cannot stay completely static but it may also be too late for drastic changes. Contributors want space to try new things that may result in great experiences, but they take time and require patience from the people most sensitive to changes like this.
For myself, the answer I found was that making maps is not terribly rewarding as people have developed favourites from the past years, and so I have decided to only contribute when I feel the desire to express myself creatively, rather than chase being on the matchmaker pool every month.
I think a reassessment on where things should go on a personal and game design level is a healthy thing that everyone should be doing right now.
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No, it was not as transparent as can be.
We had a giant community choice poll advertised where people could upvote and downvote ideas they submit and we had TMM as one of the three most desired additions to FAF.
Once long term developers could devote time to the project, a plan was formulated on how the whole mechanic would work which was then publicly posted and a news letter was made.
Said policy got feedback where concerns were addressed and critiques were accommodated.
People would ask for updates, people would post about what the roadblocks are or if work has paused because of real life concerns.
TMM launched and the biggest overall concern I recall with said new feature was the map pool made for the beta month.
This does not include the variety of github and zulip conversations but these were about mechanical implementation.
That to me is as transparent as possible.
