Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread
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Updated the changelog with more detailed explanations.
I also want to point out that there is a reason why this is Faf Beta. It is meant exactly to test out new unit/ability design ideas. Whether the first iteration of the change is balanced or not does not mean it shouldn't be tested out.
Also obviously if it turns out a unit or ability is too strong or too weak in beta we would take another good look at it.
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@thewheelie said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
I think it's quite funny that people instantly see the vulthoo change as a buff even though it technically worsens the stats / mass invested compared to the current version while the stinger more or less stays the same.
It might only be 'my played race syndrome'.
We're all so vulnerable to the impression that the race we prefer are weak, need buffs, and keep getting nerfed, and/or the races we don't are strong, need nerfs, and keep getting buffs.
I recognise that, even though I play ABSOLUTELY balanced (more than always-random: meaning that I cross-off a race when it has randomly been picked more than another), I STILL do it! (I kinda like seraphim, and suggest things like lightning tank being 'fixed' to stop missing, or selen being 'fixed' to not be reclaimed so easily by engineers....)
I think we're ALL massively guilty of this, no matter our noble intentions, and I think it's probably the reason for certain adjustments being seen as 'nerfs' or 'buffs' depending on whether said player prefers UEF or Seraphim.I could be wrong, of course... But I've seen it SO often in SO many games, I really think it's a possible reason here, and not a lot more time needs to be dedicated to figuring it out.
(For clarity - yes, vulthoo is definitely better vs T2 antiair, but worse vs T1 and T3 antiair, including ASFs. The opposite is true for the stinger changes, it seems... Somewhat necessitated by lack of a t3 gunship for sera.
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Mass efficiency doesn’t matter, the Vulthoos role in the Seraphim toolbox is to be a strong and hardy, albeit inefficient sniping tool that can shrug off flak… I.e. kill a land experimental that’s coming at your base, and get the reclaim anyways. Since they don’t have a T3 gunship they have to use the less mass/hp efficient T2 tech (usually DPS per mass goes down and HP per mass goes up as you tech). But the Vulthoo is like a T2.5 unit, and now it’s more like a T2.75 unit. It only further fleshes out the gap in the Seraphim air force.
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Debuffed t3 air = nothas spam as hard as u can, specially on maps where 2 mexes are 1 cell apart each other.
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@xejinord11 said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
Debuffed t3 air = nothas spam as hard as u can, specially on maps where 2 mexes are 1 cell apart each other.
Pretty sure Inties and Swifties still exist and are far cheaper and faster to build... and are at T1 or the same Tech.
~ Stryker
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Variable teleport costs demo here.
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Hi guys,
I think you can simplify all the recent changes by just removing Cybran out the game as that seems to be the goal. Let me explain.
I am a Setoner and exclusively played Cybran for the last 2 years. When the last patch came out and Cybran had HARMS and hives totally ruined, you can take my word for this as my beach defense relied heavily on these and worked like a charm, I was forced to swap.
Let me explain what I mean by HARMS being ruined. Traditionally these were among the toughest units to deal with, the best way being ground fire. However with ground fire being difficult to direct, and HARMS having a lot of health they were an excellent unit. Now with the massive reduction in health, having less range then all destroyers bar sera, and the additional ease of ground fire, you can basically just laugh at them. I just click a cruiser onto each one and wait 20 seconds as the missiles don't miss.
Next hives and purely far worse engineering stations and should NEVER be used unless you cant get UEF tech.
Currently the reduction in damage for the Cybran com laser snipe means its far far less effective.
These changes have already ruined Cybran, totally and completely in any late game. I will never choose Cybran now as they are by far the worst. Long time Cybran player Mize also agrees and is playing Aoen.Now ignoring this, EVERY other faction in the game has a pinpoint game ender that can destroy other game enders. Cybran do not have this ability. The Scathis will never be able to defeat a shielded anything. The answer to this was always the telesnipe. Now with the range and damage changes we are better off using harsh words.
ANYONE who gets telesniped late game deserves what they get. If you lose your 250k Mavor to a telesnipe, maybe you should have planned a bit better and made some shields and PD.
In conclusion, I think it'll just be easier to remove Cybran from game. You've already done great with the Setoners group as no one I see now actively plays them, they just get them on random.
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@storm Can you expand by detailing what UEF, Aeon, and Seraphim strategies you are now using?
I mean, instead of the HARMS, or the hive, or the tele-laser snipe?You mentioned endgame artillery, but it all feels pretty similar there tbh (shield your big gun, fire your big gun at the enemy, wait - all a bit simcity for me, but...).
In addition to all this, the statement that 'I'm a Setoner' usually carries with it (sadly) the ability to exchange engineers with teammates, and thus, IMO, all semblance of racial balance is immediately eliminated outside of T1 rushing (I really don't think sharing engineers with allies is a good idea because of this).
But still, I really want to know what you've replaced your HARMS and your telesniping and your hives with, from the UEF/Aeon/Seraphim toolkits.I personally play random, and don't play Setons, but I'm really eager to know what is going on there - cybran are really strong in my area of play (mantis are just wonderful!), despite lack of good hover units, but I want to learn more.
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HARMs were both OP and not fun to play against. Nothing in Cybran roster relies on HARMs as some fulcrum for their naval gameplay. If you were reliant on it, it's because you were abusing a gimped unit rather than playing the perfectly functional Cybran navy. As a sentoner, you should be aware that there were a decent portion of high level sentoners that made house rules to just not use HARMs because of this, including Yudi.
Hives were likewise not ruined. By ruined you mean they were brought down to the statline of UEF kennels. Costs UEF like 25 mass per unit of BP in a kennel, costs Cybran like 18 mass per unit of BP in the first stage of hive. Hives carry more general utility via instant transfer across projects compared to kennels which have innate lag and can be interacted with by units like aa or interceptors. So even if they were equal in mass per BP, hives would still be better in most situations.
For laser:
let's say you have Aeon T2 PD and you're playing a Cybran that has no vet. You have 4 seconds before a Cybran ACU kills you. Oblivions fire every 4 seconds. This means you need 17 Oblivions to be in range to kill the Cybran ACU before you die assuming no stationary shields. But people will make survivability upgrades. Let's give the Aeon ACU 19000 more HP. Now you have 10 seconds. That means you only need to make 9 Oblivion turrets. That's approximately, at an utter minimum, 10k mass in t2 PD and I think another 3kish in ACU upgrades? Now put that across 4 slots, and you have around 52k mass in defenses. None of this is possible to make as a response late game btw, it just needs to exist on the sheer reality that Cybran exists. It also doesn't factor in that any map beyond dual gap, you have an air grid away from SMD away from potentially ACU away from large mex expansions which can all be teleported for value.That's for an upgrade costing 15k mass, btw. Of course the cost of tele is inherently more focused on E, but at min 28 you can have the 5 t3 pgens to make it in 2 minutes basically anywhere, especially sentons.
Playing random faction is basically universal at 1800+, I can think of like 3 examples where it isn't true and 2 are Cybran players. I imagine at sentons, nearly everyone 1500+ also plays random just because it's established as the norm in that community in the first place.
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@sylph_ Not endgame artillery, just anyway to end a game. lets say you are on a map that lends itself to a longer game such as setons, gap anything over 10k etc. Salvation, mavor or sats and YOLO will always win against a scathis due to its inability to hit single targets and down shields.
Telesnipe is soon to be extinct with these changes as it is already struggling with the 25% damage nerf already.
As for navy, Cybrans advantage was always HARMS on the defensive. They were excellent units, however now they are totally useless as the mass needed for them is so high compared to their new abilities. The Exodus out ranges them now and can ground fire, the UEF and Sera have cruisers which can pinpoint execute the HARMS with almost no effort.
As for race, I've went both sera and UEF. For defensive purposes UEF have the excellent neptune rush which stops t2 pushes dead, and the sera of course have zooeys if you need them as well as tele sacus which are amazing with nukes.
Engineering stations are better in every way than hives due to their mobility.
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@storm said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
As for navy, Cybrans advantage was always HARMS on the defensive. They were excellent units, however now they are totally useless as the mass needed for them is so high compared to their new abilities. The Exodus out ranges them now and can ground fire, the UEF and Sera have cruisers which can pinpoint execute the HARMS with almost no effort.
?????????????????
Trident? Barracuda? Galaxy? Salem is tolerable now though I still don't like using it. If you're defensive, salems don't need to worry about kiting backwards so most of their disadvantages are gone anyway.
Engineering stations are better in every way than hives due to their mobility.
Just completely not based in reality, literally nobody made a kennel in the world of this game when hives were 14 mass per BP. I still rarely see kennels, but it's at least not actively hitting yourself in the knee with an iron bar to make them anymore.
Literally no Cybran player in the last like, 10 years has asked for a UEF engineer to make kennels. The reverse happens 5 times daily on dual gap.
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@ftxcommando If laser coms were the be all and end all of the game, everyone would play cybran. As for HARMS, yes they are annoying, but any competent player simply goes around or does something else. They should not be nerfed into uselessness just because certain people don't like them. A player building HARMS is not attacking you, and you can then punish them in other ways.
As for hives on dual gap, yes they are the superior choice due to your entire base being within range of them, however I'm not sure a units entire balance should be viewed by its usefulness on one map.
My concern isn't the frankly massive HARM nerf, or the hive nerf, or the laser nerf, or the range nerf. Its everything together.
Cybran on larger maps have nothing to reach and and touch the enemy with now. Given shielded game enders, Cybrans only chance was the telesnipe. If you have put 250k into a game ender, and didn't take the very basic precaution to shield it, that's your own fault.
A shielded UEF com, and the shield costs 2300 mass, has 12 seconds before the telesnipe kills them. That's just the com excluding any other shields that happen to be lying around. Sera, Aoen and UEF all can have a com shielded (or HP increase) to the point when tele is pointless to even try. Anyone who doesn't factor in a potential telesnipe gets everything they deserve. Also I use tele tac missile Sera SACU. Are you suggesting these are OP because people have to build TMD everywhere? I also use Aoen SACU and tele in, build 3 PD and tele out. Does tele need to be removed from SACU because you might use it?
As to your words about having to build PD everywhere when you think the enemy Cybran is going to go tele, let me ask you a question in return. When an enemy builds a Novax station, do you sit there like a lemming or do you shield or your mexes? One novax on a Setons means you need roughly 40 shield generators to protect your mexes, and that is a lot more costly than making some tele defense.
As for PD, I would argue its far far better to build t2 bombers for a rapid tele response.
Do I like the Novax? No, but others do so I'll never ask for them to be nerfed to nothing. A few weeks ago I actually started a Novax, then abandoned it at 1% and watched the other team build a bunch of shield gens. Does this need to be removed?
As for 1800+ players going random, you are correct, this game should be exclusively designed for those players. Anyone who likes to play a certain race should be punished as unworthy.
My point is simple, Cybran have been hit hard with nerfs recently and don't need anymore to their most unique ability. I didn't know about these potential changes until I was told about them by several people who were complaining that it makes Cybran very poor late game.
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@storm said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
PD everywhere
You don't even need PD everywhere. 3 tac missiles will do
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The tele nerf isn't even just affecting Cybran, it's making every faction less fun imo. People are biased against snipes as a way to win games it seems, it's more upsetting to get sniped than to execute the snipe for most people, so all the sniping cheese in the game is getting normalized. Boring.
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@storm said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
Salvation, mavor or sats and YOLO will always win against a scathis
I've honestly seen the opposite in plenty of games. I'm not convinced that scathis is worse for its mass cost, compared to the mavor, salvation etc.
Not that I'm an expert - my games are over WAY before that stuff hits the field!It's starting to sound like your biggest issue is telesnipes - from what I've seen, they tend to be used by players that are fed-up and want to go to bed. I agree with the comments about them being more annoying to receive than rewarding to execute.
Still, if the issue is scathis, I think scathis are great, especially when people know how to power-down shields.
If the issue is HARMs, HARMs are honestly still amazing when assisted vs navy at my level, and without compare from any other races.
If the issue is telesnipe, telesnipe can still end games quite easily.If the issue is cybran losing identity, I honestly don't see it - deceivers still make the race SO different than the others, and satisfying to use, not to mention mantis being so dominant at T1 with micro, and ACU stealth being critical (admittedly my games tend to have far less players than average.)
Are you SURE you weren't just a bit of a fan of suiciding to end another player's game because it was your bedtime? Because that seems like the biggest change that cybran have been hit with lately (and sadly, it stills seems incredibly easy to do with only a little setup (basically just a t2 transport an 40 seconds)) - I'm asking this honestly; I don't play lots of team games, I just watch them, and see lots of telesnipes knock players out that definitely wanted to keep playing, having invested 10's or hundreds of minutes into queuing and setting up the game prior. I mean, I know you can defend with 30 seconds of point defense spam, so I don't have much sympathy, but still... Is it that rewarding to do damage in that way? Is that really the lynchpin of cybran racial identity?
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I don't shield all my mexes when I see a novax, waste of resources. Cheaper to just rebuild the mex after novax leaves. Shield grids and larger mass fab farms. I'll make a shield if it can protect at least 3 mexes, though.
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Scathis is only worse than the Mavor in some situations, and it's better in other situations. For example, I can just out build a Mavor if I've got map control and am going for nuke subs (setons). Did that as recently as today without much trouble, though tbf the Mavor didn't live super long. Can't really do that with a Scathis, it'll wreck all my power and is virtually impossible to shield a large base against especially after the last buff to narrow the spread a bit.
No competent player would go into a game expecting to rely on harms for their navy unless they're trolling or being really obnoxious.
At this point I don't remember the last time I died to teleport it's quite easy to counter usually. The most depressingly strong tele isn't even cybran imo, it's multiple sera rambo bois. A few of those going at once is very hard to deal with with how tanky they are + the damage when they die. 3 of those well placed are very hard to kill in before they kill the game ender/smd/whatever their target is. I don't think I like the range nerf yet but I'll hold judgement on that until I can play with it some.
EDIT: While it's easy to not die to tele, it still takes a disproportionate amount of mass to defend against so it's quite strong. It's a bit like an SMD where you have to do it in certain games.
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@ftxcommando said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
That's approximately, at an utter minimum, 10k mass in t2 PD and I think another 3kish in ACU upgrades? Now put that across 4 slots, and you have around 52k mass in defenses.
Water, t1 pd and shields you can walk through
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It was mentioned at the time harms were to be nerfed that if the nerf was too much then it might be tweaked in a later balance update. I've yet to see a harms in a game I play post-nerf but then since I'm usually playing TMM naval based maps aren't that common (and I don't tend to play Cybran now). Are they seen in games where they're effective (rather than e.g. being built by someone who didn't realise all the nerfs they got who then sees them easily killed by long range naval units)?
While I'm not suggesting they go back to pre-nerf levels it'd be sad to see them go the way of the beetle and mercy (two other faction specific units that got nerfed for being too strong which I don't see now).
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@shadysocks said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
@ftxcommando said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
That's approximately, at an utter minimum, 10k mass in t2 PD and I think another 3kish in ACU upgrades? Now put that across 4 slots, and you have around 52k mass in defenses.
Water, t1 pd and shields you can walk through
Water covers ACU, doesn’t cover smd/air grid/large mex congregations
t1 pd is often times more expensive because if you really want to cancer with laser, you can get gun and laser critical things right outside of t1 pd range
shields: yes, but that still makes the cost insane factoring in 4 bases and multiple teleport targets and makes the calculations so tedious for no real change in reality.
I should also say your “just make tml” solves nothing really because an air grid or half of one being sniped late game is well worth an ACU dying and if you’re telling me you perfectly time your TMLs for when right when the ACU pops in, I want 3 replays of it happening in real games.
