Why seraphim dont have RAS?

@wikingest said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

The real issue here is that sections of the gateway building, for some reason are pathable to external unit, so it only takes 1 engie that is not actually assisting after being ordered, to find it's way inside and suddenly your expensive eco-generator is sitting idle.

No one orders you to send units into gateway, and it is much more common that units block/ get on the way of building stationary buildings, like massfabs and power generators.

Try it yourself- spawn a gateway and 50 T1 engies to assist it, and you will see that not all will assist properly and will start wandering around by themselves and end up inside the structure without being ordered, preventing a new com being started. This is another reason why players use kennels / drones to assist.

Also, if you have trouble with units getting in the way of your buildings it seems like a skill issue on your part - how do you ever manage building an air grid for example?

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

And as you are saying, that I was not accurate in those comparaisons, show me where was the mistake I supposedly made.

Still waiting...

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

You can't just subtract the mass cost of engineers from the cost of the gateway because it comes with build-power.

Yes you can. This is mass you do not spend on building this buildpower somewhere else.

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

sure you can fight t1 arty with coms, but vs a large t3 army or experimentals they are about as good as fighting with the fabs

No, this is open lie. They are not "about" the same. Massfabs dont even have any dps at all. And massfabs have much less hp. And especially t3 ones can kill lots of friendly stuff when exploding.

Well, massfabs can have dps to any enemy units that get too close But your RAS coms, they also go explodey when they die, and having a group of them hit by some aoe means they can potential chain each other when one or two are destroyed

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

So you either spam PD or try and run away.

Sacu's can build pd's or run away, but massfabs can not.

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

Also, you don't get to reduce the cost of the RAS coms because of their build power or energy generation - does the game give you this discount?

Game gives me build power, power, hp, dps with sacu's, that I dont have to build elsewhere. So of course this is economy for me.

You might have got this mixed up with ACU RAS, which is done earlier in the game when you are still building out your eco. You can make an argument then for the upgrade being worth a fraction of a T3 gen since you can delay the next one and put that mass into another t3 mex upgrade for example

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

This would be like reducing the cost of the T3 pgens in a fab grid because of the surplus energy they provide...

Of course I reduced the cost of t3 pgens in my examples, because of surplus of energy. Did you really not notice.

Ok so why stop here, a T3 Pgen costs 3240 mass and gives 100% of the energy cost of a T3 Pgen, so we can discount the cost to 0 because of the mass we will save by not having to build another one

If this is your case, than this is a major skill issue. Usually one needs more power in late game than in early game (bigger economy, shields, nukes, t3 air etc. etc.). And even if one point you dont need more power, you can reclaim power generators, giving you back mass and space and reducing explosiveness of your base. And later if you still have excess of power you can build massfabs without stuffing those into big grids with pgens, that one t1 arty can kill.

making fabs with gens or RAS coms, gets you power to mass income of roughly 100 to 1. The only things with a cost ratio that high are ASF or building a nuke missile, and these are usually reduced by adjacency as much as possible. Everything else is 30 to 1 cost at most.

So you are going to have much more power than you need, and no need to build more t3 gens. Yes you can eventually recycle your T3 pgens for extra mass but at that point in the game it is only going to be worth a few seconds of your income.

If you have two players, one building fab farms and the other spamming bois, the first is going to have much better mass income and can finish their t3 arties / game ender etc quicker to win the game.

Any replay of RAS SCUs winning a game yet? Cuz the only replay posted in this thread was basically won by min 20 when Yudi's team had 20% more mass income but it took 40 minutes of dicking around with boys to end the game.

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

Try it yourself- spawn a gateway and 50 T1 engies to assist it, and you will see that not all will assist properly and will start wandering around by themselves and end up inside the structure without being ordered, preventing a new com being started.

If it happens often, then maybe you should order engis differently, it has happened to me about one time every 500 gateways built .And it is very easy to notice and repair. You know you can order engis to assist engis, or to give them waypoints?

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

Also, if you have trouble with units getting in the way of your buildings it seems like a skill issue on your part - how do you ever manage building an air grid for example?

Check out some high rated replays if you want. They can remove engis manually, to build first t3 pgen, but later engis can get in the way often. Probably like hundreds of times more often than in gateways. But eventually engis move themselves.

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

Still waiting...
@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

You can't just subtract the mass cost of engineers from the cost of the gateway because it comes with build-power.

Yes you can. This is mass you do not spend on building this buildpower somewhere else.

Why do you copy stuff if you never answer?

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

Well, massfabs can have dps to any enemy units that get too close But your RAS coms, they also go explodey when they die, and having a group of them hit by some aoe means they can potential chain each other when one or two are destroyed

Almost all enemy units can kill massfabs, before they get close. So it is not really a valid strategy, to build massfabs, and hope your enemy suicides on them. It is like building your game on a hope that your enemy ctrl-k all his stuff just before winning. It might happen (maybe one time out of milliard), but i dont think you would win often

Ras sacu exposion makes about 1000 damages in 10 radius, and t3 massfab 5000 in 14 radius. While ras sacu's have health from 15-19k and massfabs only 6k.

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

So you either spam PD or try and run away.

Sacu's can build pd's or run away, but massfabs can not.

Why do you copy stuff if you never ansver?

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

You might have got this mixed up with ACU RAS

Clearly I did not get it mixed up You think that ras on acu gives hp and dps the same?

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

Ok so why stop here, a T3 Pgen costs 3240 mass and gives 100% of the energy cost of a T3 Pgen, so we can discount the cost to 0 because of the mass we will save by not having to build another one

Apart from some people, most avoid wasting others time for nothing.

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

making fabs with gens or RAS coms, gets you power to mass income of roughly 100 to 1. The only things with a cost ratio that high are ASF or building a nuke missile, and these are usually reduced by adjacency as much as possible. Everything else is 30 to 1 cost at most.

That has no relation with subject. You can build some asf without airgrid. People usually dont put nuke between 4 t3 pgens, you can build massfabs without sticking those into grid with t3 power (as already said), the fact that something has lower ratio, does not mean that it does not need power etc.

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

Yes you can eventually recycle your T3 pgens for extra mass but at that point in the game it is only going to be worth a few seconds of your income

It depends... If you have only two (probably more) t3 power 3240 x 2 = 6480 mass. And you get 80% = 5184. For that mass to be worth 5 seconds of your mass income, you need to have more than 1000 income per second... Seems unrealistic, that you could never reclaim those before... Often games dont even get to 1000 mass income per player.

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

If you have two players, one building fab farms and the other spamming bois, the first is going to have much better mass income and can finish their t3 arties / game ender etc quicker to win the game.

Ok, so Dualgap player? Yes, I know the Dualgap has a back space that is not often attacked in lower rated games... (But still can be attacked by the way.) And people actually build t3 arty/ gameenders to win the game. But in general manner, if one player gets his massfarm(s) exploded, then the one with ras sacu's (still alive) has a massive advantage. Even on Dualgap.

The more I think about this the more I lean on the side of 'sera should have ras bois'. It's literally just an unnecessary knowledge check wtih zero impact on gameplay. People only build ras bois in teamgames so all it takes realistically is asking for an engi to build boi factory ie. basically no gameplay impact if u know that sera has no ras bois. And if u don't know that sera has no ras bois it's just frustrating building an useless quantum gate and then proceeding to ask for engi from teammate when u realize there's no ras preset. "Faction diversity" is not intrinsically good and it's not even an argument when there's practically no gameplay impact.

Note that it's mostly irrelevant how powerful ras bois are. People build them regardless for whatever reason and it's annoying having to memorize the answer to "which was that faction again that doesn't have ras bois?"

Wait until the SCU rebalance patch in 2030 and reevaluate the state of RAS SCUs.

@wikingest said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

Try it yourself- spawn a gateway and 50 T1 engies to assist it, and you will see that not all will assist properly and will start wandering around by themselves and end up inside the structure without being ordered, preventing a new com being started.

If it happens often, then maybe you should order engis differently, it has happened to me about one time every 500 gateways built .And it is very easy to notice and repair. You know you can order engis to assist engis, or to give them waypoints?

Your best bet is an attack move order with your engineers to the gateway, to help them bunch up and then assisting a couple of lead engineers, this should stop the bumper cars but takes some time waiting for them to position

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

Also, if you have trouble with units getting in the way of your buildings it seems like a skill issue on your part - how do you ever manage building an air grid for example?

Check out some high rated replays if you want. They can remove engis manually, to build first t3 pgen, but later engis can get in the way often. Probably like hundreds of times more often than in gateways. But eventually engis move themselves.

Gee I guess any lower rated players just lose air then since they can't build their air factories fast enough then...

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

Still waiting...
@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

You can't just subtract the mass cost of engineers from the cost of the gateway because it comes with build-power.

Yes you can. This is mass you do not spend on building this buildpower somewhere else.

Why do you copy stuff if you never answer?

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

You might have got this mixed up with ACU RAS

Clearly I did not get it mixed up You think that ras on acu gives hp and dps the same?

well last time i checked, RAS is a mass and power income upgrade on both ACU and sACU. You need to build the com which has those things already first, which can actually be more efficient since you can then use it's built-in buildpower for RAS while your gateway makes more coms. Much more fiddly though.

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

Ok so why stop here, a T3 Pgen costs 3240 mass and gives 100% of the energy cost of a T3 Pgen, so we can discount the cost to 0 because of the mass we will save by not having to build another one

Apart from some people, most avoid wasting others time for nothing.

So why are you wasting time with this response instead of addressing the flaw in the logic of reducing the cost of what you build by T3 pgen equivalent, when you won't be building any more?

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

making fabs with gens or RAS coms, gets you power to mass income of roughly 100 to 1. The only things with a cost ratio that high are ASF or building a nuke missile, and these are usually reduced by adjacency as much as possible. Everything else is 30 to 1 cost at most.

That has no relation with subject. You can build some asf without airgrid. People usually dont put nuke between 4 t3 pgens, you can build massfabs without sticking those into grid with t3 power (as already said), the fact that something has lower ratio, does not mean that it does not need power etc.

The relation is that late game you are going to be swimming in energy if you are making either fab grids or ras coms. So if anything you should count surplus power as the equivalent in mass you can generate with it

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

Yes you can eventually recycle your T3 pgens for extra mass but at that point in the game it is only going to be worth a few seconds of your income

It depends... If you have only two (probably more) t3 power 3240 x 2 = 6480 mass. And you get 80% = 5184. For that mass to be worth 5 seconds of your mass income, you need to have more than 1000 income per second... Seems unrealistic, that you could never reclaim those before... Often games dont even get to 1000 mass income per player.

I was considering 600-700 mass income, of course ras coms can basically scale up to your unit cap which is fun (but not efficient). If you plan on building some t3 fabs you can also prebuild your t3 power in a suitable configuration which means you can just add some in making them even more efficient.

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

If you have two players, one building fab farms and the other spamming bois, the first is going to have much better mass income and can finish their t3 arties / game ender etc quicker to win the game.

Ok, so Dualgap player? Yes, I know the Dualgap has a back space that is not often attacked in lower rated games... (But still can be attacked by the way.) And people actually build t3 arty/ gameenders to win the game. But in general manner, if one player gets his massfarm(s) exploded, then the one with ras sacu's (still alive) has a massive advantage. Even on Dualgap.

I was thinking more of Setons, but really any map which can tend to stagnate and go late game, canis or hilly etc. If you opponent is making units then you should consider doing the same at least and not eco-ing so hard. You can even skip shields if you want until t3 arty or sat shows up. If you get stratted just blame your air player and make sams

@Blodir This game has so many intricacies that 'knowledge check' doesn't really seem a sufficient reason to pad out missing faction units, does this mean we should add T3 sonar or T3 gunships for Seraphim as well?

Since I was bored and there is no sign of the mythical SCU rebalance patch I chucked a mod together with some BP nerfs and weapon swaps and new combat engineer presets 'Alternate SACU Balance'

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

The real issue here is that sections of the gateway building, for some reason are pathable to external unit, so it only takes 1 engie that is not actually assisting after being ordered, to find it's way inside and suddenly your expensive eco-generator is sitting idle.

If this is the main issue for you, I dont see why I should move my engis in same way as you. For me, as i move my engis, it is totally neglectable problem.

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

Gee I guess any lower rated players just lose air then since they can't build their air factories fast enough then...

This is kind of the point of the rating, to predict, who would likely win. Gee...

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

Still waiting...
@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:
You can't just subtract the mass cost of engineers from the cost of the gateway because it comes with build-power.
Yes you can. This is mass you do not spend on building this buildpower somewhere else.

Why do you copy stuff if you never answer?

I mean if you systematically dont have anything to say, there is no need to copy things infinitly.

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

well last time i checked, RAS is a mass and power income upgrade on both ACU and sACU. You need to build the com which has those things already first, which can actually be more efficient since you can then use it's built-in buildpower for RAS while your gateway makes more coms. Much more fiddly though.

RAS on acu do not give hp and dps as RAS sacu. So there is no way I could have been speaking about RAS on acu. So there is no need to invent more stuff, you just made a mistake, again.

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

So why are you wasting time with this response instead of addressing the flaw in the logic of reducing the cost of what you build by T3 pgen equivalent, when you won't be building any more?

There is no flaw in my logic. You should check out what logic flaws are by the way. I already told you that people usually need more power in endgame, than in early game. And I usually build more power generators if I dont go for RAS sacu's.

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

The relation is that late game you are going to be swimming in energy if you are making either fab grids or ras coms. So if anything you should count surplus power as the equivalent in mass you can generate with it

I already told you that there is plenty of ways to avoid "swimming" in power in late game. I already told it at least twice... And fab grids, unless having pgens, consume power...

I mean as many words as your comment has, you copy things for nothing, you speak about things with no relation, you accuse me with no proof/ explanation, if you systematicly avoid discussion, and ignore what I said, we can as well stop this.

@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

I was thinking more of Setons, but really any map which can tend to stagnate and go late game, canis or hilly etc.

At least we have a new big meta for Setons now! Unprotected t3 power and massfab grids, and t3 arty

@veteranashe said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

There is mods for sera Ras bois or all factions gateway.

Fixed

Which ones? I looked up "Seraphim", "SACU", and "RAS" in the mods archive and didn't find anything. I can only guess it was named something without any of those words/acronyms.

@fafmsletje said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

ras bois for noobs, bild t2 mass fabs

Aren't T3 mass fabs more efficient now? T2 16 mass for 1600 power vs T3 16 mass for 1500 power

@piguy "All Faction Quantum Gate"

@arma473 said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:

@piguy "All Faction Quantum Gate"

Thanks, but this looks like it lets you build SCUs of ALL factions, I meant something that just adds RAS option for Seraphim.

Mass fabs are more efficient; however:

• There is not always space to make them
• Planning where to build them requires apm and time investment, whereas for RAS SACUs you can just hit the repeat button and forget about it.

If mass fabs didn't require space and I could build an infinite number by pushing a single button once, then I wouldn't care that Seraphim have no RAS SACUs. And yes, I know about templates, but sometimes it is even difficult to find space for templates. And again, that takes time—not a single mouse click like the repeat build button for SACUs.

On space-limited maps, Sera is at an incontrovertible and distinct disadvantage when it comes to very late game eco.

Keep in mind RAS SACUs can also protect themselves from t3 artillery by building and/or assisting shields and/or moving underwater. They can also run from incoming mobile threats. Mass fabs can do none of those things.