Suggestions & Recommendations
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@magge said in Suggestions & Recommendations:
If I recall correctly, the Disperse Build and the Disperse Reclaim suggestions were denied, because it would be too overpowered and would increase the skill gap between players who are using and not using these features by several astronomical units.
Ive never heard of this before. Are you sure youre not confusing it with something else?
Anyway, the argument that it would increase the skill gap is a bad one and kinda irrelevant if you ask me. There are tons and tons of players not using way stronger tools than what is being suggested here. Its actually the opposite. Adding these tools would lower the skill gap because its now less effort to do something that required more effort previously.
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It was related to those discussions and threads - If I mixed it up, my bad. However, because of the abusing power in UI mods, it will not be allowed in the first place, but I like to be proven otherwise from someone who knows more about the matter, because I like those ideas.
sheikah said in Reclaim Brush:
This is effectively the same as area commands which has already been heavily discussed on this forum here https://forum.faforever.com/topic/2054/beating-a-dead-horse-area-commands/12?page=1
and on the old forum which I will link when I find it
Edit: found em, have fun reading
https://forums.faforever.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13632
https://forums.faforever.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=8471&start=20 -
Disperse reclaim is not the same as area commands. One is completely automating a process while the other just makes it more efficient
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Remember that auto mass fab was added not that long ago.
Sadge for radar ring at least (T1/T2/T3 radar and sonar would be nice)
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@thewheelie said in Suggestions & Recommendations:
Adding these tools would lower the skill gap because its now less effort to do something that required more effort previously.
But that's only true if what the mod allows you to do is already done normally by high level players and I don't think i have ever seen someone reclaim like the disperse reclaim does. Not even sure if people actually bothered to setup their build commands like the spread build would for mexes. So if you add it, it would raise the skill gap, because it potentially makes everyone play more efficiently, but is another thing you have to learn to use.
Wouldn't spread build be kind of a noob trap anyway, since you want to build things sequentially most of the time? And the gain of using it optimally is often very low. (48 mass at the t3 stage in the screenshot)
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So, it seems disperse build and reclaim are a no-go because of possible UI mod abuse?
I can see how it would happen but I cannot seem to understand why it would happen if the UI let's you do the same?
The player still has to manually click on reclaim wreckage and place down each structure... Unless I'm not understanding correctly...
~ Stryker
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well how did I miss this thread before, anyways I thought disperse build was a problem more because of engine limitation than balance reasons, and I tried to fix spread attack by using some stuff I learned while creating disperse move, but doing so is only possible by changing FAF code itself because UI mods can't change anything about spread attack for some reason, and my fix was rejected, also no, it wasn't broken, here is example of what it allowed when combined with disperse move
like I would gladly let disperse move effect other orders as well, but it is up to FAF to allow UI mods to effect anything except move orders, because it only can't because of restrictions put in place specifically to prevent it effecting certain orders
I already asked a similar thing before about the concepts of UI automation and "computer playing for you" (which I don't agree should be allowed btw) in FAF in general, trying to explain that proper controls breaking the game merely expose the underlying problems that were so far hidden because of lack of those controls preventing you from using units to their maximum potential where their brokeness would be revealed, in a way bad controls "balancing" certain units and tactics and good controls thus breaking this balance, the obvious solution being to allow better controls and rebalance the broken units, but then again, we still groundfire underwater units and consider that balance
to tldr it, in conclusion, my opinion was that UI mods should allow player to do anything to issue orders more easily and thus control units properly but not beyond their existing abilities, to tell them what to do as effortlessly as possible, what they shouldn't allow is issuing orders on their own without player input and deciding things themselves (no post player action decision making by ui mods allowed, so player only gets better controls instead of mods playing the game for them), but anything player wants to get their units to do, they should be able to do with least effort, so that the game is only about "what to do" rather than "how to optimize time between what to do and tedium and mechanical skill of getting them to do it manually over several seconds, even if it took you a split second to come up with what they should do"
the problem of ui mods giving advantage to players using them over those that don't has a simple solution that was already done (partially) for some of them such as target priorities, include them in base FAF so everyone can use them
eventually it comes to what you want the game to be what your opinion on this is
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@ComradeStryker those are security limitations. Allowing those can cause lots of auto-click mods for reclaiming and building.
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I apologize, I'm having difficulties following, I may have misunderstood.
Some of you say it is a balance limitation whilst others say it is a mod limitation.I'll assume it's probably a bit of both, but... I have some questions.
@TheWheelie mentioned it wasn't as effective as area commands, so, how is it that it would break balance?
Wouldn't shortening an APM Gap between casual players and pro players be a good thing?
Wouldn't making the UI a little more powerful be a good thing?Also, doesn't the player themselves still need to click on the reclaim or place the buildings down and then give the disperse order? - How could this process be automated completely to cause auto-click mods?
I believe that these mods make the game a little more appealing as the UI becomes more flexible. Easing the 'load' on newer players by offering new and easier ways to do things.
~Stryker
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@mach said in Suggestions & Recommendations:
well how did I miss this thread before, anyways I thought disperse build was a problem more because of engine limitation than balance reasons, and I tried to fix spread attack by using some stuff I learned while creating disperse move, but doing so is only possible by changing FAF code itself because UI mods can't change anything about spread attack for some reason, and my fix was rejected, also no, it wasn't broken, here is example of what it allowed when combined with disperse move
Well holy shit. That looks absolutely sick and I love it. IMO that's no more "the computer playing for you" than regular disperse move or disperse attack is. No one is setting up attacks like that manually right now simply because of the APM that would be required. But adding that would open up new tactics and should absolutely be allowed. I mean shit, I'm glad your video uses Janus' because that seems perfect for janus firebombing missions but I could see it being used in other situations too.
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@mach said in Suggestions & Recommendations:
here is example of what it allowed when combined with disperse move
That... is awesome!
Sucks that it couldn't have been more refined and implemented.
This would've made a great addition to FAF.
~ Stryker
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We can look into it again when we find the time for it. It didn't get merged because there was an issue when I tested it followed up with merge conflicts. And that on a pull request that was two years old, from before my time.
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@jip said in Suggestions & Recommendations:
We can look into it again when we find the time for it.
@Jip
Any update specifically with the Radar Range rings?If it can't be done with the game engine as you mentioned, perhaps there is another way?
~ Stryker
