Talking about the Fatty

Sladow-Noob

I have no idea how I missed Yudi's post but he basically pointed out the exact thing I kinda tried to say.

As Banani said actually increasing the dps + speed of the shells might be the way instead of buffing the shield hp / general hp. The Fatty would be able to stop incoming T4s faster / is a higher threat and therefore can defend structures better, which are relevant in the lategame such as t3 arties.

TheWeakie

All we need is to wait for turins sacu rebalance to make bubble boy spam viable for fatty support :psycho:

Sladow-Noob

Love how I didn't follow turin's post and now I'm like.... "Either he's serious or I'll get clowned on" 4head

Pearl12

For those of you saying "just bring along shields" (either t2 or shield boys), having them assist the fatty rarely seems to position them in a way that protects it. Am I missing something or is it really that micro intensive to have mobile shields actually shield the thing?

Sladow-Noob

I mean if you have like 20 Parashields a support-order should be enough. If the fatboy is pushing, there is a chance that they'll fall behind, so yes. If it moves, you might have to micro slightly, but since it's not moving that often, it doesn't rlly need a lot of micro.

Pearl12

Sure, if you have TWENTY parashields, ten of them will be in front of it, and ten behind. So you're getting some efficacy, but only half.

And what if you have 5? Or 2? Shouldn't they at least make some difference, or are you really saying you need at least x amount before it matters at all?

Sladow-Noob

Well, if we compare the costs of parashields, the time a Fatty enters the shield and all the other circumstances, then having <10 parashields with a fatty is a big mistake in the gameplay. That's a must-have and since you could afford a fatty, they shouldn't make any difference referring to the economy

Tex

Vanilla fatty was a monster. It packed those big boy summit cannons. Shell damage and speed was massive. Dps was way higher even with like, 1/4th the ROF. I miss vanilla fatty. It would still suffer from the same problems but it was way cooler.

Pearl12

@sladow-noob said in Talking about the Fatty:

Well, if we compare the costs of parashields, the time a Fatty enters the shield and all the other circumstances, then having <10 parashields with a fatty is a big mistake in the gameplay. That's a must-have and since you could afford a fatty, they shouldn't make any difference referring to the economy

My point here is not "making parashields is hard" but "should you really have to have additional units to make a fatboy even viable?"

All the other factions have an exp that can operate just fine on its own. Sure if you're losing air you need AA, etc. etc., but an early monkey by itself can clean house and a fatboy by itself can... be sort of annoying I guess? Your main counterargument is really "well it's fine if you just build these other units to go with it?"

You also did not answer my question regarding if there is a way that is not micro-intensive to have a majority of mobile shields (whether t2 or boy) actually cover a fatboy.

Sladow-Noob

That's what you mean. Misunderstood the first part then.

Also I wouldn't call "move shields every now and then, otherwise support the fatty" micro-intense, so I adressed that. It does take micro, yes, but only a couple of clicks every now and then, so basically... nothing compared to other units

veteranashe

Lol a exp without support is typically a dead exp

phong

@Pearl12 Comparing it to the monkeylord is a bit unfair since that's the ultimate rush experimental and it only manages those memorable base wipes when it's brought to bear early enough to encounter little resistance. But the balance team was afforded a luxury when making it so: cybran have 2 land experimentals so they could specialize one of them for early-late-game. Fatties, on the other hand, we should instead compare to chickens, GCs and megaliths.

All that being said, you are still right, I think. The fatty is more dependent on supporting units than all of those, since it can't tank and its damage is so low. This, I think, was also a deliberate design choice by the balance team, justified at the time by the fact that UEF had what was perceived to be a stronger-than-average t3 land unit mix, some even said the strongest, before snipers became so popular.

I think that by trying to make it's extreme range the defining characteristic though, the balance team sort of painted themselves into a corner. With this constraint, they had to reduce its speed, damage and health compared to other experimentals, otherwise it could just kite them too effectively. This, in turn, made it disproportionately vulnerable to air snipes and t2 artillery, as people have mentioned. To be clear, I don't think it's a bad design direction to explore, but maybe toning down it's range, projectile speed or shot spread a bit might allow some buffs to it's weaknesses, health and damage. As long as other experimentals, while dodging, can still take it down 1v1, that might be ok.

Pearl12

@sladow-noob said in Talking about the Fatty:

Also I wouldn't call "move shields every now and then, otherwise support the fatty" micro-intense, so I adressed that. It does take micro, yes, but only a couple of clicks every now and then, so basically... nothing compared to other units

Yea, "a couple of clicks every now and then" for an 1800 is "basically nothing," but for those of us plebs who are still mediocre at micromanaging, "a couple of clicks" is gg.

Sladow-Noob

@pearl12
Don't forget the apm of your opponent is limited as well. If we talk about high ranks, then it's only a few clicks.
If we talk about lower ranked lobbies, then it could be more intense, however the opponent doesn't realise all the possibilities to kill the fatty. It basically cancels out if you understand what I mean?
Explanation might not be the best here, but speaking from experience low ranks tend to focus on 1-2 things at the time so it's not a problem.

Pearl12

Right, theoretically I am a similar rank and thus have similar micro abilities as my opponent, but if I'm UEF and they're Sera, they don't have to use those extra clicks because their exps don't need to be micro'd as much. The fatty almost always requires micro to use properly. Monkeys, Chickens, and GCs rarely do. Or at least, they are much more forgiving.

I just don't think "it's balanced if you micro it" is the argument we should be leaning on. Isn't that just a skill filter?

FtXCommando

For sera t3 land to be decent you need to babysit it so this is a weird argument since the UEF guy doesnt need to babysit his sniper blob

Nooby

@tex said in Talking about the Fatty:

Vanilla fatty was a monster. It packed those big boy summit cannons. Shell damage and speed was massive. Dps was way higher even with like, 1/4th the ROF. I miss vanilla fatty. It would still suffer from the same problems but it was way cooler.

Why not half its ROF and double its shell damage?

I think this would suit the faction more

veteranashe

I just watched a cast of Rambo coms dodging around half the fatty shells so that might be a bad idea.

TheVVheelboy

@veteranashe
It can be also accompanied by buff to the shell velocity. Tripple the damage, lower the rof, at the very least double the shell velocity and you have a beast of a unit. Switch the explosions to the summit one and you have a unit that now also have a good sound/visual punch to it.

And if going this route one could also experiment with changing the firing randomness to make it more of a precision artillery piece rather than current one that is more about shelling your opponent with thousand small shells.

Also another thing I would look at is small buffs to the riot guns. Giving them a little bit bigger turret Yaw could make them much more reliable to use.

Sladow-Noob

@pearl12 said in Talking about the Fatty:

Right, theoretically I am a similar rank and thus have similar micro abilities as my opponent, but if I'm UEF and they're Sera, they don't have to use those extra clicks because their exps don't need to be micro'd as much. The fatty almost always requires micro to use properly. Monkeys, Chickens, and GCs rarely do. Or at least, they are much more forgiving.

There is a chance I simply misunderstood it, but your opponent indeed has to micro as well. He walks chicken into your fatty and you retreat - His chicken will die.
He also has to pay attention and react to your movements, otherwise his units just get hit for free -> I would actually say your opponent (If you're the one with the fatty) has to use more apm due to finding mistakes in your micro so he can push and once he was in range and needs to get out, he has to run in zig-zag as well