Scouts and labs should not break tree groups

[Jip]

Identify a Problem

A lot of maps have tree groups. In comparison to trees they are beyond measurable more effect to reclaim. Tree groups can be broken by units walking through them.

Scouts and labs are fast units used for raiding. They also break tree groups. This is a two-sided problem:

• (1) You can see through the fog when tree groups break, while these units should be 'low key'
• (2) These units are relatively fast and hard to catch, allowing them to be used to purposefully break tree groups of your opponent

The issue with (2) is that it is extremely effective: it is a low investment with almost no setback, while if successful you deal serious damage to someone's build order / early economic progression and you didn't even need to shoot at anything.

Showcase the Problem

Here is a replay for (1): https://replay.faforever.com/17061951

Tree groups breaking by your own scout, notice the sudden change

Tree groups breaking by some unit you can't see (it is a scout), notice the sudden change through the fog of war

An example replay for (2): https://replay.faforever.com/15963787

It is not uncommon for a mid player on Seton's Clutch to send one scout with the sole purpose to destroy the tree groups of the opponents air player. It feels frustrating as it is difficult to counter (especially an Aeon scout that is going across the water) and it doesn't feel like a technique that you should expect to be part of the game.

Find a Solution

I propose that scouts and tech 1 labs should no longer break tree groups. We can do this by giving them a new category NoTreeBreaking, and when a unitcollide with a tree group we check for that category. If they have it, then the tree group won't break.

This is a simple solution that is cheap on performance.

Justify the Solution

The tree groups are a product to safe on performance. They are simply put more efficient to render. Tech 1 scouts and labs are supposed to be 'low key' units used for raiding. Yet, they are visible through the fog by them breaking tree groups (1). And they can be used for anything but scouting by intentionally breaking the tree groups of your opponent (2). It is a dominant strategy on some maps (Seton's Clutch / Dual gap), it is difficult to see coming / to counter and it feels frustrating when it happens.

[Robustness]

I'm against
how to resist this, make a scout or a lab that will kill your scout in the obviously necessary passage, there is no such problem on the gap, this is part of the game, part of the skill. Moreover, examples of 20km maps where this scout goes to the goal for 3 minutes.... and if it was not detected, this is the problem of the players, not the mechanics or the features of the faction.

[FtXCommando]

If it were added I’d rather it kept to a simple rule of “t1 units don’t break trees” than anything else.

Also it is pretty much functionally impossible to catch spirits on sentons before they get to trees regardless of player skill.

[Robustness]

it's funny, but they are often caught if they know that the opponent with the best chance will make them

[FtXCommando]

Literally Yudi’s team did it every single game in the last sentons tournament and they were never caught.

[Jip]

@ftxcommando said in Scouts and labs should not break tree groups:

If it were added I’d rather it kept to a simple rule of “t1 units don’t break trees” than anything else.

Also it is pretty much functionally impossible to catch spirits on sentons before they get to trees regardless of player skill.

What if we add an additional unit property here:

That indicates that the unit doesn't break tree (groups)?

[FtXCommando]

I was thinking about some FACTION DIVERSITY to make some faction tanks break trees and some don’t and whether that would be good for the game or not. If that was decided to be good I think you would want that solution but I’m not sure if there is much of a reason for trees to be run over by t1 tanks and not labs as a universal thing.

[TheVVheelboy]

Inb4 aurora and mantis don't break trees as they aren't real tanks.

[JazzFunkNoob]

I'm all in for the labs and scouts. But I think any other unit should keep doing so for asthetic reasons alone.

[TheWeakie]

I dont really see the need to make labs not break trees. Never seen that been an issue

[arma473]

We should make LABs not kill engineers

[veteranashe]

I remember awhile back that broken trees were buffed or something so the reclaim value wasn't as big as a hit when broken to specifically combat this. Did this fix not work?

[Tagada]

I wouldn't be opposed but I need to think about this a little more.

[Maomaoo]

That's something that only impacts sentons/selkie as those two are only a few of the maps where tree breaking can really be harmful because of how abundant the tree density is and it's really hard to prevent an aeon scout from getting through because of how large the water area is and how open the map is which opens a lot of paths and sometimes it can be very unpredictable from where they will be coming from, the mechanic isn't particularly op for 99% of the maps but the environment of the map makes it so, i don't really think that's an issue otherwise the same logic can be applied for dual gappers who constantly complain about stuff like t3arty/nuke op but most people here tend to ignore those because they use the argument that they're irrelevant for 99% of the other maps.

[Tagada]

Yeah, but this wouldn't really change anything for all the other maps (the LABs giving free intel to the enemy by breaking tree groups is a bug, not a feature. I wouldn't mind seeing it gone) while making it arguably better for Setons. That's not the case with nerfing Arties because of DG.

[Maomaoo]

True, i gave random example though and there may be another more specific examples but yea ure right.

[FtXCommando]

By that logic wouldn't reclaim changing because of enemy bombs without you scouting the result of the bomb hitting the reclaim also be a bug?

[Zeldafanboy]

Honestly I would also like this change so that I don’t break my own tree groups and therefore don’t have to path scouts and labs around unbroken forests

[Jip]

@ftxcommando said in Scouts and labs should not break tree groups:

By that logic wouldn't reclaim changing because of enemy bombs without you scouting the result of the bomb hitting the reclaim also be a bug?

Technically - yes .

But that is a bug that is very difficult, if not impossible, to fix with the engine limitations.

[BlackYps]

Is seeing a lab through the fog of war that big of a deal? From the gifs I would have to actively look at that area to be able to notice the visual differences. That means I don't do anything else in that time, which is a pretty high cost. It looks like the main visual difference comes from different LOD values, can't we align them, so the tree group looks basically the same when it got broken?

Regarding the breaking of tree groups on purpose: People complain about build orders being too OP all the time. We have a tool here to disrupt the enemy's build order, but this is now unwanted too? I would like to hear some more explanation why you want to get rid of this mechanic. Do you take issue with the fact that the unit doesn't need to shoot to do damage? I think it's a creative use of the game's mechanics to counter a greedy build order and it's one of the very few options when your own build order is inferior.

If we still want to lessen the impact of broken tree groups we could play with the mass adjustment for broken groups. That has already been done once and that way we don't have to introduce additional complexity, where some units arbitrarily break trees while others don't. Plus we can keep the nice visuals of a lab crushing trees while running through a forest.