Ban EcoManager & Similar Mods

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@keene said in Ban EcoManager & Similar Mods:

@speed2 said in Ban EcoManager & Similar Mods:

Microing massfabs adds 0 value to the game, they should have been automatic from day 1. They just need some warning when they're not running on 100%, so you don't build more of them just to find out they are all disabled.

"They just need some warning when they're not running at 100%"

One exists, its called an energy stall which is very flashy and visible.

I think you missunderstood me.
If the mass fabs are managed automatically and turn off when you don't have enough energy. You can end up in a situation when you're not stalling, but only half of your mass fabs are running. So you think you have enough energy, build more fabs, but that will only cause more of them to turn off so your power doesn't crash.

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Mod needs to be removed. And if Jip could implement his idea, making it difficult to use this mod, that would be awesome!

Sorry for my English)

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Dont forget to remove other UI mods that extends player abilities, that can`t be used by all players.

Also, you guys voting to remove innocent mod, but cant remove astro/gap from FAF kappa

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You can't ban it. 26 posts and nobody even thinks about adding a sim solution to it: put a cooldown on the toggle. Do the same for shields.
Reduces the advantage massively.
And/or add a warm up time to mexxes, so it takes e.g. 30 seconds until they reach regular efficiency.

"Nerds have a really complicated relationship with change: Change is awesome when WE'RE the ones doing it. As soon as change is coming from outside of us it becomes untrustworthy and it threatens what we think of is the familiar."
– Benno Rice

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@eternal i just woke up and see this kappa

My github repo with UI Mods

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Some people say it is legal, some people say it is not, but lets take a look in FAF rules:
We will list what sort of UI mods are not allowed here. This includes:

  • All reclaim macros
  • All autoclickers

So? Where are the limits of it? I vote for mod being banned and such functionality considered as autoclicker

My github repo with UI Mods

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@brutus5000 sounds like the perfect solution

Sorry for my English)

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@nullptr I agree, it would just be very difficult to control the ban on the use of this mod. above wrote that it would add even more work for moderators. so discuss other options (cooldown )

Sorry for my English)

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@brutus5000 said in Ban EcoManager & Similar Mods:

You can't ban it. 26 posts and nobody even thinks about adding a sim solution to it: put a cooldown on the toggle. Do the same for shields.
Reduces the advantage massively.
And/or add a warm up time to mexxes, so it takes e.g. 30 seconds until they reach regular efficiency.

Sheikah and I discussed that in private - I'm not sure how that works in practice without having a reasonable impact on performance in return. I'd need to look into this πŸ™‚ .

To add to the discussion: from a gameplay perspective I don't think it matters when a casual player uses a eco management mod like this. As Speed2 mentions: this game is not about fabrication-micro.

To me, there are a few options with a few consequences:

  • (1) We try and prohibit people from using the mod. This is A, not entirely possible, B it will anger a lot of people that were used to it and C it has a relative high load on moderation.
  • (2) We allow the mod in casual games, but not in tournaments. From a replay / observer perspective it is easy to see if someone is using the mod. This has all the benefits of (1) when it matters (during tournaments), without angering people.
  • (3) We integrate the mod into FAF, by providing an alternative like Brutus mentioned. One that discourages enabling / disabling them in quick succession.
  • (4) We integrate the mod into FAF, instead of through a UI mod. That way everyone has it.

When thinking about it, being able to use fabricators to get rid of excess power seems like a reasonable purpose for the units in question. To 'soften up' the times when there is no reclaim.

A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned

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All mods that affect the economy and do not require any actions from the player should be marked as sim mods.

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Note that (4) means it becomes part of the FA repository.

A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned

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I misunderstood 4 option. I edited the post. πŸ˜ƒ

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@jip This would mean that the FA is adding an autoclicker

Sorry for my English)

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Wouldn't be the first time: the ringing feature for extractors is not far off.

I mean like: we're here to wage strategic battles. Not to worry about fabricators. In a lot of my games I typically don't use them because they are so volatile to your economy. But if we'd automate them by default in some sense, in a way that doesn't harm performance, then it is a nice new feature to the game. The capability of being able to do something with all that excess energy, instead of spilling it to your allies πŸ™‚ .

A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned

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Even without this mod, the idea of brutus sounds pretty good

(3) We provide an alternative, like Brutus mentioned. One that discourages enabling / disabling them in quick succession

Sorry for my English)

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@marcspector thats not option 4. Option 4 I think is saying it is automatically part of FAF (presumably with an option in settings to turn it off) the way building storage around a mex is integrated.
(Edit: posted pre your edit!)

If it’s made a SIM mod (which I presume is what is meant by banning it-ie ban mods featuring this unless they are SIM mods) and Jips ideas for making it hard for most people to use are implemented I dont see an issue with this not being fullproof. Not being able to stop 1% of cases shouldnt mean giving up entirely.

M27AI developer; Devlog and more general AI development guide:
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/2373/ai-development-guide-and-m27ai-v44-devlog

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Yep, either (3) or (4) with the ability to toggle it off seems the most sane option to me.

A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned

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@skrat You already using an embedded auto-clicker called "Spread attack". Including UI Party and other related UI mods

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@jip said in [Ban EcoManager & Similar Mods]

  • (4) We integrate the mod into FAF, instead of through a UI mod. That way everyone has it.

When thinking about it, being able to use fabricators to get rid of excess power seems like a reasonable purpose for the units in question. To 'soften up' the times when there is no reclaim.

The mod has several different features, some of which are arguably undesirable for integration IMO. I'd rather FAF specifically add/integrate the ability to auto toggle the player's choice of mass fabs/radars/shields. That seems like a useful functionality that should be in the game, it would be fair, it would decrease tediousness, and it wouldn't increase the moderation burden.

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The issue is mod not only toggle fabs but also prevents from E stalling by any means. If i am not mistaken you even can choose in what priority to cut off E spending. In my opinion eco managing is the core part of the game and it should not be simplified too much.

It would be good to have more or less strict rules what mod types are considered as illegal. And any exceptional case should be also stated within the corresponding thread. In general EcoManager works as auto clicker but for some reason considered as legal mod and used by many players.