Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1
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@jaggedappliance said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
What do people define as toxic? I've seen this word so often that it is losing its meaning. In many cases people seem to see it as simply saying swear words. If this is the metric then I am as toxic as the next.
Trolling, lying, derogative behavior, being argumentative just for the sake of it. I don't think this is so hard to come to an agreement about.
Just using swear-words is clearly too low of a bar, though.
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But now, how do you define trolling. How do you ascertain that the other party is trolling you, so far to me it seems like by your definition of trolling you and nine2 are also doing it.
Lying? That's also something that we can't be sure of and is something that can't ascertained. Even more when you are clearly unwilling to prove your point by showing substantial evidence in form of proper logs/screenshots.
Derogative behaviour? Again, what does it consist of. What makes it derogative and not just being abrassive manner of speech which is not derogative by any means. How do you define that when we all come from different cultures, classes and ethnicities?
If anything I can assure you that you and nine2 came of as derogatory more than once clearly being unwilling to talk with others and saying that speaking to them is unproductive which I find way more derogatory than just being abrasive in speech but still willing to talk it out, even if in harsh words.
It also seems like the the derogatory ones are you and nine2 in your unwillingness to understand that we aren't all made from one mold and as such you can't expect us to conform to your views on that matter. Often resorting to outright banning people and kicking them from different servers without trying to understand their point of view and what makes them behave in certain ways.Again, being argumentative. How is that bad? And if it's that bad then you and nine2 also are guilty of it again and again. Even more as you both are tending to hide from any talks in public deeming it unproductive and then go off to do it yourself in the chambers.
Sorry I can't trust you at all, and especially your definitions. The only thing I see is people trying to make others conform to their world view with no regard to the other parties.
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I'm back, lets discuss some more items.
The OP has a number of strawmen arguements made in some attempt to stop some form of dissidence. I assume the "abuse one" relates to any comments made about nine2's personal game. But it's clear this didn't stop much. You'll note the last time I ever saw something like this in particular was when Poch made a post about the use of the french "message.es" as some form of gender neutral language.
The first two points are assurance that removing FtX (and myself?) will not end up in a net loss for the community. This is based on nothing and i'm not going to bother. Calling someone a "poison" isn't really kocher though.
"But Nine, you are totally abusing your position of news editor"
I find the use of the term "news editor" very interesting because during the ongoing discussions on the potential abuse related to the personal game, I mentioned numerious times that a Councilor has a responsibility to fulfill to FAF. A rank and file contributor after all, does not have an obligation to follow FAF's interests and can work on other projects as they please. I said this here for an example:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/519425924874371094/848531791920889866/Capture.PNG
Saying "I'm the news editor" makes a user look like they're that said rank and file user.
It's like saying i'm just the "vault janitor" when as a Councilor, i'm responsible for the great majority if not all of the FAF Content pipeline and how users / authors interact with it.You can take away what you please from this comment. I just don't enjoy the language used.
There is nothing in my job description to say that I can't post news items for myself
Refers to the game from which nine2 has a financial incentive. I would assume any readers would be aware of this by now.
You mean like the dossier biass published on morax to take him down and assume his position? I have no doubt there some takedown document about me somewhere.
This refers to the public document wherein I made my case for Morax's relection. I am happy to share it with anyone who is curious, but this would damage Morax's run for PC which is the point of the OP (to get support for Penguin) so be warned. No dossier exists for nine2 and paranoia is not healthy.
FtX prevents or otherwise blocks retention screenshot
I searched for "yt channel" in zulip and couldn't find the relevant post. I'm assuming this is before I became a councilor. Why has there been no attempts to solve retention after that?
I want to go through the rest of the posts and also talk about retention (I tallied the responses from the "why would you leave FAF" thread) But i'm honestly fried. I stayed up to 7am following this stuff. It can be done later.
Just quickly though for sheeo:
The election was supposed to be yearly and you know this well
No? I had to call for an election for MnM after a ~2 year office. No yearly election was done for player councilor before FtX. Nine2 was elected to promotions now a little over a year ago, shall we call an election?
Not just "anyone" can join; they need to be proven sympathetic to the objectives defined in the statutes
Would you like to explain how you audited the first wave of members in order to prove them as sympathtic? Did you ask them to which they just said yes? Saying they need to agree to some vague pledge means nothing of any actual value.
What further are you suggesting?
I'm suggesting you implement the revision I posted.
You were asked to explicitly provide your own input and suggestion as to this code of conduct: That hasn't happened.
"if you want to speed it up, why don't you to come up with a proposal for the code of conduct yourself?" is the exact quote. I don't think these two are the same. You're asking me to make it for you.
I don't know where you answered "this" earlier.
Outside of filling in your pre-made narrative what is your point here? It's awfully convenient than you can pluck sections of chat to suit your conclusions.
On a side note; please refrain from sharing the private council chat without the permission of the other councillors. Just because you have no respect for confidentiality does not mean you have the right to impose that onto the rest of the councillors.Damn dude, did you read the original post? Or open the document?
The statutes are public and you know it.
I'm asking people if they know what they are.
I'm not even going to bother replying to this backwards attempt to gaslight me into thinking i'm doing this for my own "power". So I can continue to moderate the vaults or something? What a joke it is that this baseless phrase was even mentioned.
Your suggested changes are to the statutes, not any "pledges". The statutes were accepted and cannot be changed unless you invoke the processes mentioned in those same statutes. You're welcome to go ahead and do that.
Discussing anything with you is literally not possible. I can't even get you to properly read what's been said and i'm constantly being gaslit into some absolutely insane story of me trying to "power grab". You even went so far as to claim that because I didn't get mad at an advertisement made in 2017, that my claims against nine2's game project were based entirely on some personal vendetta. I can't be bothered. goodnight. Oh, and release the patreon data.
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If this is about Biass being toxic (which seems to be what your examples are trying to show), why are you making this about Ftx's election? Aren't those two different people?
When was this code of conduct posted in the forums publicly for everybody to have a look at it, so we actually know WTF this is all about?
If you want to change FAF, and a big part of FAF would definitely want to make it more welcoming by reducing toxicity, why is all of this stuff going down behing closed doors until several days before an election takes place, to be used to paint people in bad light? Dont get me wrong, i can sympathise with your general goal here. But this thread would appear more than a little bit shady to anybody not involved deeply in FAF, and for good reasons.
You cannot change FAF without involving the FAF community from the beginning through the middle until the end. This whole Council of Setons thing could die and i woundn't shed a tear. Doesnt seem to work very well anyway.
Edit:
Here is and idea fro you: Convince anybody who is with you to leave the Council of Setons and create a less toxic alternative. Toxic environments destroy themselves over time, since they cannot attract new people. You can help that along instead of opening up a drama thread that nobody can relate to. -
@sheeo said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
@jaggedappliance said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
What do people define as toxic? I've seen this word so often that it is losing its meaning. In many cases people seem to see it as simply saying swear words. If this is the metric then I am as toxic as the next.
Trolling, lying, derogative behavior, being argumentative just for the sake of it. I don't think this is so hard to come to an agreement about.
Just using swear-words is clearly too low of a bar, though.
Trolling is not an easily agreed upon judgement, nor is arguing just for the sake of it in many cases. Lying is of course extremely negative behaviour. Derogative behaviour I assume means insults which is not always toxic in my opinion, it depends on the insults and where they are directed e.g. are they personal or aimed towards an idea or towards some very negative behaviour.
In reality all this thread has done has put out the serious disagreements from within the council into the public. It doesn't look good and I don't see where this is heading at the moment.
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@BRNKoINSANITY We made a report from long ago. I think of you fill it out with info about players that have inappropriate names. I am 100% they get banned or warned.
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@jaggedappliance said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
What do people define as toxic? I've seen this word so often that it is losing its meaning. In many cases people seem to see it as simply saying swear words. If this is the metric then I am as toxic as the next.
Disclaimer: I know this may come across as preachy so I just want to say that I am aware that I'm not exactly an angel either.
Toxicity is down to individual perspective, things are toxic when people claim them to be toxic. People claim things to be toxic when they are offended. Despite the subjectiveness of the matter we can still infer some general rules to how we should interact with other human beings without offending them.
First I want to convince you that even if you are sociopathic and ignore all ethics it is still in your best interests to not offend people.
- Offending people creates an emotionally charged state. Emotions hinder efficient communication. You should hope for efficient communication, because that is the primary way of learning new things. You probably aren't running a particle collider in your backyard, yet you may still learn about the standard model from the comfort of your home.
- It is difficult to be productive when you are in an emotionally charged state. Especially in an open source community working toward a common goal, such as FAF, you should wish to maximize other people's productiveness. The more productive other people are the less you have to work yourself, right? Or perhaps these people are capable of doing things you can't do yourself, why would you throw away their abilities?
- People you have offended may not wish to work with you again, hindering your future prospects.
- Toxicity is reflective, once you have offended someone the chance that they will offend you in return goes way up. If this happens you have not only affected the other parties, but indirectly your own ability to think straight. Even if you think yourself thick skinned, there's a chance that the other party in their anger find a way to penetrate that layer of protection. Why take that chance?
I've only scratched the surface with this list. I would also list the pros of offending people, but I genuinely can't think of any.
I hope you see that it is strategically of vital importance that you do your best to avoid offending people. Now comes the hard part. Anyone may be offended by anything you say! But if you were to always stay quiet in order to not offend anybody, that would kinda defeat the point of communication in the first place wouldn't it?
This is where social skills come in. You have to balance the likelihood of someone being offended with the honesty of your communication. If you can say your piece without offending anybody, you should seek to do so, but if that is impossible you should at least dampen the blow as much as possible to minimize the amount of offense taken. Socially adept people are able to talk about offensive topics without offending anybody.
The social machinery is extremely complex. I have good news for you though: your brain is designed to deal with problems like this. Better than any machine learning algorithm we have come up with. So use it.
TLDR; There is no hard definition for toxicity since any behavior can be construed as toxic as long as someone was offended by it. It is in your best interests to minimize the amount of offense you dish out. Your brain was designed to solve social problems like this. Use it.
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@jaggedappliance said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
@sheeo said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
@jaggedappliance said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
What do people define as toxic? I've seen this word so often that it is losing its meaning. In many cases people seem to see it as simply saying swear words. If this is the metric then I am as toxic as the next.
Trolling, lying, derogative behavior, being argumentative just for the sake of it. I don't think this is so hard to come to an agreement about.
Just using swear-words is clearly too low of a bar, though.
Trolling is not an easily agreed upon judgement, nor is arguing just for the sake of it in many cases.
No; I didn't mean say it was easily agreed upon. Just that it isn't "that hard"-- the scale is wide.
At some point it becomes abundantly clear that a person has no interest in productive conversation and has other motives for continuing discussion.
Lying is of course extremely negative behaviour. Derogative behaviour I assume means insults which is not always toxic in my opinion, it depends on the insults and where they are directed e.g. are they personal or aimed towards an idea or towards some very negative behaviour.
Agreed. These things go hand in hand, though.
In reality all this thread has done has put out the serious disagreements from within the council into the public. It doesn't look good and I don't see where this is heading at the moment.
I agree. These problems should've been dealt with internally in the council a long time ago.
If I'd stepped up and kicked the offending councilors there would've likely been a lot of this anyway, however.
With people complaining about the lack of transparency I think they now have it, at least. The council has devolved entirely into dysfunction due to these issues, so I think that's important to shed some light on and make it clear to those who are interested.
The board and the association decides where this goes and I hope sensible people are able to make their own judgements. It has been possible to reach consensus amongst people with disagreements in the past.
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Good details in the post. Thanks. While reading, I saw that someone wrote, "deeds are better than words": D I support, I already understood, it is better to be a silent person doing work than a "grandmother in the entrance".
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@biass said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
Just quickly though for sheeo:
The election was supposed to be yearly and you know this well
No? I had to call for an election for MnM after a ~2 year office. No yearly election was done for player councilor before FtX. Nine2 was elected to promotions now a little over a year ago, shall we call an election?
Yes; I think we should. But it's a bit much to do more of them at the same time. Let's get over the PC election first, shall we?
That being said; I want to reconsider the whole council structure as well-- before you interject and insert your narrative that I want to do this to get rid of FtX let me just preempt you there and say no. The council has been dysfunctional overall for a long time and it's time to look at how to improve it generally. I trust the board to be able to come up with a solution; which most likely involves going out and asking the community openly again. Some players have, completely on their own, come up with suggestions for how to restructure the leadership.
Not just "anyone" can join; they need to be proven sympathetic to the objectives defined in the statutes
Would you like to explain how you audited the first wave of members in order to prove them as sympathtic? Did you ask them to which they just said yes? Saying they need to agree to some vague pledge means nothing of any actual value.
Okay, that's your opinion and I respect that. How do you suggest we change that?
I don't know of any other association where you have to do anything further than pass a simple acceptance test of peers from the association as well as commit yourself sympathetic to the statutes.
What would be necessary in such a more thorough audit?
We are all ears on positive, sensible and well founded suggestions on this. There was a 3 week period where you could suggest changes to the statutes and you have been among the closest people to the inception of the association.
What further are you suggesting?
I'm suggesting you implement the revision I posted.
In the statutes? You're welcome to suggest this formally to the board; as I have told you before.
The issue is this takes a General Assembly to adopt into the statutes; this can at the earliest happen with 3 weeks notice and another extraordinary GA or next year. If you want it that bad go right ahead.
As for the pledge; I explained why the board should not and cannot make any such dedicated pledge to mutually work with the council in my earlier responses to FtX. I have also explained it in private to you before.
You were asked to explicitly provide your own input and suggestion as to this code of conduct: That hasn't happened.
"if you want to speed it up, why don't you to come up with a proposal for the code of conduct yourself?" is the exact quote. I don't think these two are the same. You're asking me to make it for you.
Yes. I don't think it's a priority and you seem to think it is. So please go ahead and make it.
24 days I asked the other board members for input as well, after you mentioned it.
Outside of filling in your pre-made narrative what is your point here? It's awfully convenient than you can pluck sections of chat to suit your conclusions.
On a side note; please refrain from sharing the private council chat without the permission of the other councillors. Just because you have no respect for confidentiality does not mean you have the right to impose that onto the rest of the councillors.Damn dude, did you read the original post? Or open the document?
Yes, I did.
The statutes are public and you know it.
I'm asking people if they know what they are.
It was announced in the forum post I linked.
I'm not even going to bother replying to this backwards attempt to gaslight me into thinking i'm doing this for my own "power". So I can continue to moderate the vaults or something? What a joke it is that this baseless phrase was even mentioned.
Your suggested changes are to the statutes, not any "pledges". The statutes were accepted and cannot be changed unless you invoke the processes mentioned in those same statutes. You're welcome to go ahead and do that.
Fine; you're suggesting changes to both. It's really hard to argue with a wall of text when you can just pick and chose which part of it you're currently talking about.
Regarding the statutes I explained those cannot just be changed without the due process.
Regarding the pledge you have a problem with asking the board to even make such a pledge when it involves them assigning responsibility and powers to some non-association members.
I have yet to see any solution to this problem and I cannot do anything but conclude that this is really about you being unwilling to assign responsibility to the board and the association.
Hence the "accusations" of "power grabbing". If you think I'm wrong and you're willing to accept that the buck stops with the Board and the association then I'm happy to retract that.
Discussing anything with you is literally not possible. I can't even get you to properly read what's been said and i'm constantly being gaslit into some absolutely insane story of me trying to "power grab".
I don't intend to gaslight you. I've brought up the same reasons -- on many occasions and in different formulations at this point -- about why you cannot have the board pledge to only work on objectives agreed "mutually" on by non-board members.
I've yet to hear any good response to this.
You even went so far as to claim that because I didn't get mad at an advertisement made in 2017, that my claims against nine2's game project were based entirely on some personal vendetta. I can't be bothered. goodnight.
That's not the only reason I have to think you have a personal issue with Nine. That being said; I don't want to meddle with that and I'm trying not to take sides in this argument.
I've stated my opinions on the general topic of external advertisement and how specifically Nine has conducted himself relating to the Sanctuary project.
Oh, and release the patreon data.
The accounts and financial overview for the 2021 year will be public.
What exactly do you mean by "the patreon data"?
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@Sheeo Nobody is interested in the 2021 patreon data (that one will obviously be "correct"). We are talking about the years roughly 2017-2020, and you know perfectly well that we are, no need to play dumb or divert attention to "ill release 2021 data". Since you have surely separated faf patreon and private money and therefore directed the patreon to not-your-main bank account (...surely?), this shouldnt take you more than a couple minutes in the balance history of that account.
The reason this is even demanded is that the patreon has been chilling at a solid 300-500 bucks a month (as of writing, 588) for a long time, while the server + tourneys should not remotely use it all up (if it does, sad, but we would like to see the facts). From what I have heard about server costs & the tourney contributions from official FAF, it appears that there should be thousands saved up.
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Dear @Sheeo I have two questions regardning the faf association and board for you, or any else who is able to answer them, because my lack of knowledge regarding the faf association is making it impossible to draw any clear conclusions regarding each parties stances and argumentations on this topic (especially because the only Information on the topic I can easily find are the faf statues and 2 forumposts).
In a prior post you stated:"The board isn't managing day-to-day things so why do you need to know who's on it? You can contact me or anyone from the council about any concerns you might have and they will bring it to the board eventually if it needs to go there."
Yet in the statutes it sais: "The Board is responsible for managing day to day business."
Since I didnt follow all discussions regarding the board closely I likely missed information regarding this, but currently these two statements are contradicting.
If the board is not responsible for managing daily affairs who is (in the association)?If the board is responsible for managing daily affairs I would like to know what these "daily affirs" entail. neither the faf statutes, nor the fewforum posts regarding the faf assiciation give me any clear idea about it. The only thing I found was this https://forum.faforever.com/topic/1228/faf-association-preliminary-meeting , where it was stated that "Being a Board member gives you no additional privileges regarding moderation, deciding FAF operations, making balance changes, or anything of the sort. The central role of the Board and the association in turn is meant to provide a system of accountability for the financial aspects of FAF."
which is in accordance with you your statement regarding the boards role.
It would help me a lot if you could provide a clear overview of what tasks and responsibilities the association/board is currently supposed to get/have (or allready has) and how they are supposed to interact/cooperate (even if not explicitly stated in the statutes) with the current faf management (especially details regarding deciding what events will happen on faf, how they are organised etc.) to get a proper idea of what the current situation is (which ideally could also get added to the faf association forum topic).
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classic FAF drama
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@blackheart said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
@Sheeo Nobody is interested in the 2021 patreon data (that one will obviously be "correct"). We are talking about the years roughly 2017-2020, and you know perfectly well that we are, no need to play dumb or divert attention to "ill release 2021 data". Since you have surely separated faf patreon and private money and therefore directed the patreon to not-your-main bank account (...surely?), this shouldnt take you more than a couple minutes in the balance history of that account.
The tax authorities don't care what account i put money into.
Before 2020 the income was negligible and post-tax barely accounted for the server costs. In 2020 that changed and we now have $2800 in the patreon awaiting payout tax-free because we have a legal structure to support it.
The reason this is even demanded is that the patreon has been chilling at a solid 300-500 bucks a month (as of writing, 588) for a long time, while the server + tourneys should not remotely use it all up (if it does, sad, but we would like to see the facts). From what I have heard about server costs & the tourney contributions from official FAF, it appears that there should be thousands saved up.
Responded above.
Full accounts again to be made up by the elected treasurer. You could do well by showing up and engaging yourself as well, you're more than welcome.
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@Turinturambar Right now the head of the LLC can do what he wants. All the council is not legally binding and just a way to organise things. So if he wants to shutdown FAF tomorrow that will happen (just that nobody controls the developers, so you can not tell them what to do, at most what not to do). Only that of course FAF software is Open Source and can be Forked(copied) and redeployed anywhere at any point(just without all game/map/mod data).
After forming the association(which happened already I think, just not registered yet or something like this) nothing changes. Because all the stuff is still in the hands of the LLC, till it is transferred(which is the plan some day). On the other hands cause the owner of the LLC probably accepts the association it probably the association does business in practice. But this is just a legal construct. And of course power lies with whoever is legally responsible, how could it be otherwise. With the difference that in case of the association the guy legally responsible could be replaced/ is voted on. (Btw every physical person can join the association, not now but when it is registered I believe)
So everybody sane person votes @Sheeo cause he has done the paper work before and is here for a long time. And even if you might not personally like him he normally does only interfere if really needed. So since Sheoo or whoever else would like to be legally responsible(actually not fully liable but still has legal duties), would probably not want to organise all of FAF there needs to be some way to organise. And what better to do then form some loose halfway defined construct to do that like THE COUNCIL. So there is probably no change on that end. I mean there could but WHY.
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Btw in the association there is a treasurer. So should you want more transparency on funds good news for you.
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@turinturambar said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
Yet in the statutes it sais: "The Board is responsible for managing day to day business."
Yeah wow, this is an good question and I fully understand the confusion.
In the statutes "day to day" means something different from what I've been arguing in this thread.
It means anything not related to the legal structure of the association and how it conducts itself formally. That is; anything that isn't expected by it from authorities.
Not what is expected from it by players or somebody wanting aurora to shoot further.
I hope this is clear.
Since I didnt follow all discussions regarding the board closely I likely missed information regarding this, but currently these two statements are contradicting.
If the board is not responsible for managing daily affairs who is (in the association)?The board is. Just not by the definition of the how things currently "operate" in FAF.
If the board is responsible for managing daily affairs I would like to know what these "daily affirs" entail. neither the faf statutes, nor the fewforum posts regarding the faf assiciation give me any clear idea about it. The only thing I found was this https://forum.faforever.com/topic/1228/faf-association-preliminary-meeting , where it was stated that "Being a Board member gives you no additional privileges regarding moderation, deciding FAF operations, making balance changes, or anything of the sort. The central role of the Board and the association in turn is meant to provide a system of accountability for the financial aspects of FAF."
Yes, the notion here is correct. You do not get to decide the aurora shooting distance by being a member of the association.
You get a part of the overall responsibility of deciding who represents FAF; and if you're a part of the board, a say in some particular high level issues. No aurora shooting distance will ever come up here.
It would help me a lot if you could provide a clear overview of what tasks and responsibilities the association/board is currently supposed to get/have (or allready has) and how they are supposed to interact/cooperate (even if not explicitly stated in the statutes) with the current faf management (especially details regarding deciding what events will happen on faf, how they are organised etc.) to get a proper idea of what the current situation is (which ideally could also get added to the faf association forum topic).
Axel made a response above and he's entirely correct.
Until such time that the IP of FAF has been formally transferred to the association; it carries no further weight or responsibility than that which I'm capable of giving it.
But ultimately think of it as the point where the buck stops. If there's any disagreement or if there are any important things to be discussed in FAF; this is the body that now decides it.
Previous it was a set of private individuals.
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"No aurora shooting distance will ever come up here"
Wrong. You cannot guarantee that whatsoever. The only restriction on Board activity is gross and deliberate negligence.
What you mean is "I will try to the best of my ability as President to stop these things from happening"
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Yes there is no other sane option than a registered association XD But some ppl keep ranting about it without understanding the topic at all.
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If he does interfere in the shooting distance of the aurora you can vote against him right? And btw. you(as board/the head) can not really decide on development or balance topics. If you make developers mad you are left with no one doing your changes.
