New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements

Anachronism_

@ftxcommando said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:

Your arguments rest on the assumption of me just randomly removing global rating now, which as mentioned before was never part of any game plan. I ignored it because there’s nothing for me to argue about, I don’t plan on removing global because 2v2 matchmaker exists and while having zero information about the theoretical popularity of other game modes.

No; even if/when TMM is in great shape with very active 2v2/3v3/4v4 options, Global Rating would still be useful for a lot of people, and hiding or removing it then would still cause a lot of problems.

(Above Image's Forum Context)

@emperor_penguin said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:

I want to play competitive FAF games besides what will be on TMM; so do thousands to tens of thousands of others.
TMM doesn't work for balancing things that are more global-specific and won't be on the TMM.
Map-specific rating, slot-specific rating, rating for 5v5/6v6/7v7/8v8, etc (and more) are all things that are covered somewhat (with flaws) by global, but would not be covered by FTX's TMM rating.

FtXCommando

You cannot speak about the relationship between the environment of global and the environment of tmm without knowing what the current state and then the end state is. I say there is a scenario in the future where I see global rating having lost its original purpose. As my intent is to maximize usage of matchmaker and make that the default game environment of FAF, I will end up working towards a future that results in less utility for global rating.

"it's useful, it has a lot of people that want it, it will cause a lot of problems to remove it"

These are all things you hold exogeneous by the way you structure this attempt to rile people up over something that isn't even anywhere near developer cards right now. I consider them endogenous and a viable direction depending on the circumstances FAF finds itself in at the future. I plan on making an environment that does result in circumstances that favor the obsoleting of global rating as it currently exists.

Exselsior

@ftxcommando Honestly I apologize, it seemed like people were just wanting to get rid of it off hand while implementing more matchmaker queues but I should have clarified better. I also think I somehow missed one of your posts about it when you said something to that effect. I've been annoyed with some conversations in the past about global rating being incredibly unreasonable and that carried into what I was saying here. There are reasonable ways we can either make global rating better or sunset it eventually with the right data showing it'll be fine, so if that's the approach taken I am more okay with that. Though you'd also have to be willing to accept that there might not ever be a state for FAF in which getting rid of global rating actually makes sense.

Something that I think is an important precursor that's in my opinion a more sure "win" so to say than more matchmaking queues is better stats available, e.g. overall w/l and breakdowns of w/l like per faction and per map, similar breakdowns for number of games played, your average K/D for your units, apm, etc. There are a lot of possibilities here. That coupled with working achievements, unless they're already working again, are things that'll be nice to have for new and experienced players alike. These are also the kinds of non gameplay related things that can get people playing more and get them more invested in the game even if they're not competitive. Not sure I've really seen this talked about much in this thread; it's possible I just missed it in this mess. I know this takes development work and time, but so does a ton of what else has been talked about in here. Better stats and achievements are things I'd love to see considered and talked about more

maudlin27

So FtX am I right in understanding you'd favour the following approach:
-Introduce a 4v4 (and possibly 3v3) team matchmaker (in addition to the current 1v1 and 2v2)
-Have these work a similar way to current where it's preset options, with no customisation, and a set map pool (randomly chosen), as opposed to the option suggested by someone (was it Penguin? I cant remember now it was so long ago in this mess of a thread) of a single matchmaker where you select the various options you'd be happy with (1v1, 2v2 etc.; type of map; full share, etc. etc.) and see if anyone else has selected those same options
-Once this is in place and people have ratings for these game modes, remove the global rating for custom games

That is, if you see global rating as a bad thing, but don't think it should be removed yet, what is your future scenario you want to encourage that results in global rating being removed?

Morax and Penguin - Prior to this thread I'd seen FtX contribute to many posts on the forum but I didn't really notice many contributions from either of you or recognise either of you when you first posted to this thread (I'm a relative newcomer to FAF hence wouldn't know about historic things done such as the tournaments that have been referred to for Morax). While FtX has been criticised for an abrasive communication style, he has at least communicted, and has 780 posts (vs 169 for Morax and 86 for Penguin, and I expect a significant number of those are from just this thread!). Why haven't you been as active in the forums, and how would that change if you were voted PC?

Exselsior

@ftxcommando said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:

I plan on making an environment that does result in circumstances that favor the obsoleting of global rating as it currently exists.

As I said earlier, if you achieve this I'd be perfectly okay with global rating going away.

Something I'd like to know is if there are dev plans of adding features to the queue that allows you to A. see the people currently in the queue, B. talk to the people in the queue, and C. once the queue is ready there's say a minute or two delay for you to ready up before the game starts the game starts as soon as everyone readies up or kicks you if you miss the delay. Currently in larger games I'd take a lobby sim 10 times out of 10 over sitting in a queue for the same amount of time for those reasons. To me these features would be kind of nice in 1v1, nice in 2v2, and almost essential in 4v4 queues.

Anachronism_

Hi @maudlin27,

Yes, I am the candidate who plans a major revamp to the TMM experience, involving a universal queue with various options (including different map pools, player counts, casual options, etc). My TMM plan offers a strong contrast to the plan of a few static queues (like the two we have now) that don't give customization/options/map pool-choice/etc.

Also, if FTX does eventually remove Global Rating and remains PC, he/his team would theoretically have full control over which maps count as rated (since he/his team would be in charge of the map pools with his plan). So, with such a system, any maps that FTX rejects from his pools would presumably be banished to the land of unrated maps without a Global Rating... hmmm, an elitist power-hungry candidate trying to consolidate even more power..... wonderful....

Also, the toxicity of much of the atmosphere on the forums contributes to an echo-chamber-like effect that sort of pounces on ideas that conflict with those of the echo chamber, and that drives a lot of people with different ideas away from using the forums much (or, in many cases, entirely). So, if I am elected PC, I will be active on the forums and will make a major effort to significantly change the atmosphere to be more friendly and more conducive to additional viewpoints being expressed without people being treated with such toxicity/dismissiveness/condescension/etc, as well as increasing transparency and user-involvement in FAF-related decision-making.

Exselsior

@emperor_penguin said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:

Hi @maudlin27,

Also, if FTX does eventually remove Global Rating and remains PC, he/his team would theoretically have full control over which maps count as rated (since he/his team would be in charge of the map pools with his plan). So, with such a system, any maps that FTX rejects from his pools would presumably be banished to the land of unrated maps without a Global Rating... hmmm, an elitist power-hungry candidate trying to consolidate even more power..... wonderful....

Yes this is a concern. There would have to be a very convincing set up before global rating goes away.

Mize

I like to use the Shit Sandwich approach.

First off let me say that I appreciate all the hard probably unpaid work that many of you guys do to make FAF work.

Now I want to point out that I have basically sat back for many years and seen FAF change over and over and over. Balance changes, eco changes, unit changes and such. many of them I really didn't care for.
IMHO many of these things were done to placate 1v1/ladder players.
Probably like many players we have just played and adapted for the love of the game, without much of a complaint. I also know and talk with many old FAF/GPG players who have left because of these changes.

And what the hell is this about some maps no longer being included in the global rating system? To me being an older adult this honestly seem petty. I don't care what maps players want to play. It's just like I say and live by "who cares if your gay or not" to each his/her own. Enjoy.

I want a commitment or pledge from the elected PC that He/She will not remove the global rating system.

FTX?
MORAX?
Penguin?

Again to all the people who work endlessly on this game. I applaud you. We need you and many more to make this work. I know i couldn't do it.

Mizer

SpikeyNoob

@mize said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:

I want a commitment or pledge from the elected PC that He/She will not the global rating system.

What? Not remove global?

Dragun101

@Morax @FtXCommando @Emperor_Penguin

My final three questions:

Now we all see new tourneys, people to the people and all that polls, TMM etc. In your personal opanion, what has been your single greatest contribution to FAF? If suddenly you vanish, what has been your noteworthy addition to health of FAF now and in the future? And why?
What has been sense the pandemic started, the best contribution to FAF that you were not personally in charge of (directly)? And why?
What is the best thing you can say about the other two candidates in the race?

SpikeyNoob

@dragun101 2. better be SCTA hehe

FtXCommando

@exselsior said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:

@ftxcommando Honestly I apologize, it seemed like people were just wanting to get rid of it off hand while implementing more matchmaker queues but I should have clarified better.

No point in apologizing, conversation was intended to frame it as so.

I've been annoyed with some conversations in the past about global rating being incredibly unreasonable and that carried into what I was saying here. There are reasonable ways we can either make global rating better or sunset it eventually with the right data showing it'll be fine, so if that's the approach taken I am more okay with that. Though you'd also have to be willing to accept that there might not ever be a state for FAF in which getting rid of global rating actually makes sense.

I dislike global rating because it is a fundamentally flawed implementation of TrueSkill. It is impossible to make it work better. You simply introduce yet more sieves that either complicate it into being a worse system, create new exploits, or worsen general user experience.

I have spent a long time trying to make global rating better because for a few years it was the only real way to look at players as competent teamgame players. But nothing is actually feasible.

There are several proposals ranging from having global rating impacted by matchmaker games to having global rating hidden but still adjusting itself for games to removing global rating but having say the highest matchmaker rating shown in lobby and balancing through that.

For the most part, I haven't really put much thought into what is better because we aren't even at Step 0 of a sufficiently integrated matchmaker. Odds are, it wouldn't even be me considering the issue but some PC 3 years down the line or whatever. My concern is in optimizing the matchmaker to then get into a situation where global is obsoleted and can instead take a new role where it instead operates more for casual play.

Something that I think is an important precursor that's in my opinion a more sure "win" so to say than more matchmaking queues is better stats available, e.g. overall w/l and breakdowns of w/l like per faction and per map, similar breakdowns for number of games played, your average K/D for your units, apm, etc. There are a lot of possibilities here. That coupled with working achievements, unless they're already working again, are things that'll be nice to have for new and experienced players alike. These are also the kinds of non gameplay related things that can get people playing more and get them more invested in the game even if they're not competitive. Not sure I've really seen this talked about much in this thread; it's possible I just missed it in this mess. I know this takes development work and time, but so does a ton of what else has been talked about in here. Better stats and achievements are things I'd love to see considered and talked about more

Stat-wise I don't have a problem with more information. Just comes down to presenting it in a fluid and intuitive format that doesn't end up confusing people even more. I do not think that this information helps players at all with regards to improving themselves and falls into the "neato" category. It doesn't really feel that pertinent to improving the player experience to me, IMO.

With regards to achievements that is actually something that would warrant a poll for me. I genuinely do not understand what the value of achievements are or how much of FAF actually values them at all. Do people actually look at this stuff? If so, I'd actually think about how to utilize them for FAF because honestly I just do not really think about them at all.

I don't even know why they were initially put into the client, just seems like such a weird thing because I've never seen someone achievement hunt in games. In fact it seems like it might incentivize behavior that you don't want to see if you make them more of a big deal with things like "make 500 GCs" and people intentionally stall games to fill some achievement dopamine hit.

FtXCommando

@maudlin27 said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:

So FtX am I right in understanding you'd favour the following approach:
-Introduce a 4v4 (and possibly 3v3) team matchmaker (in addition to the current 1v1 and 2v2)
-Have these work a similar way to current where it's preset options, with no customisation, and a set map pool (randomly chosen), as opposed to the option suggested by someone (was it Penguin? I cant remember now it was so long ago in this mess of a thread) of a single matchmaker where you select the various options you'd be happy with (1v1, 2v2 etc.; type of map; full share, etc. etc.) and see if anyone else has selected those same options
-Once this is in place and people have ratings for these game modes, remove the global rating for custom games

That is, if you see global rating as a bad thing, but don't think it should be removed yet, what is your future scenario you want to encourage that results in global rating being removed?

Correct. This is my bare minimum vision at the moment. I want to go into 4v4 matchmaker as this is a significantly more popular game size than 3v3. It should give a decent barometer into what exactly "the queue effect" is on the more popular queues (4v4 and 6v6 are the only ones more popular than 1v1 and we saw 2v2 rise from least popular to around the same tier as 1v1).

There are a variety of other directions to currently take the matchmaker and I want to work with Askaholic to create either:

A) A matchmaker specifically for global rating
B) Investigate the 2013-2014 rationale for removing matchmaker influence on global rating and see if we should revert this adjustment and go back to global rating being impacted by matchmaker ratings.

I also want to try out other stuff with matchmakers. I think an asymmetric FFA queue would be cool, personally and am eager for Sheikah to finish up the adjustments for that in map gen.

I do not want a variety of menus because I do not see many of the suggestions he gave creating a decent game atmosphere. A new player doesn't know share until death 2v2 is essentially an autoloss on every map that isn't Fields of Isis. Many players don't. They won't figure it out until they play a dozen garbage games and need to adjust their experience if they don't just leave FAF for providing garbage games. Plenty of other decent RTS options out there.

Do these queues all use the same rating? So now I can be a 1900+ player using the "noob map pool" queue and essentially cut myself off from all the 1900+ players using stronger pools? Great, you just turned decent TrueSkill implementations into global rating.

Are they all separate ratings? So when do I switch from noob pool to a better pool? When I feel like it? But I like feeling like I'm 2k in noob pool. Why would I switch and face people on maps that I don't know, who have experience on that map, and who are going to be better than me?

These sort of problems extend into a variety of other elements

FtXCommando

@exselsior said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:

Something I'd like to know is if there are dev plans of adding features to the queue that allows you to A. see the people currently in the queue, B. talk to the people in the queue, and C. once the queue is ready there's say a minute or two delay for you to ready up before the game starts the game starts as soon as everyone readies up or kicks you if you miss the delay. Currently in larger games I'd take a lobby sim 10 times out of 10 over sitting in a queue for the same amount of time for those reasons. To me these features would be kind of nice in 1v1, nice in 2v2, and almost essential in 4v4 queues.

A. This allows you to manipulate your rating by rigging who you face. No.

B. You can talk to your team. If you talk to people in your queue you would need to know who you are facing, this is not information that should be given out involuntarily. If people want to say they are searching on Discord or in #aeolus they are totally free to do so.

C. I kind of don't get the point of this? Why queue up if you aren't ready to play?

Exselsior

@ftxcommando said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:

@exselsior said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:

Something I'd like to know is if there are dev plans of adding features to the queue that allows you to A. see the people currently in the queue, B. talk to the people in the queue, and C. once the queue is ready there's say a minute or two delay for you to ready up before the game starts the game starts as soon as everyone readies up or kicks you if you miss the delay. Currently in larger games I'd take a lobby sim 10 times out of 10 over sitting in a queue for the same amount of time for those reasons. To me these features would be kind of nice in 1v1, nice in 2v2, and almost essential in 4v4 queues.

A. This allows you to manipulate your rating by rigging who you face. No.

Huh? How exactly does it do this? You still aren’t picking who you play with or against the matchmaker system is. I just would want to see if there are enough players of a similar rating who are queuing.

B. You can talk to your team. If you talk to people in your queue you would need to know who you are facing, this is not information that should be given out involuntarily. If people want to say they are searching on Discord or in #aeolus they are totally free to do so.

Again, I’m extremely confused on this point. In no way, shape, or form does it do what you’re implying unless I’m missing something. Matchmaker still picks who plays who, I have no impact in that.

C. I kind of don't get the point of this? Why queue up if you aren't ready to play?

Im talking off hours which is conveniently being ignored this whole time and represents way least half the day even on weekends. If I’m in a queue for potentially 30 minutes when I play, I’d like to be able to get up and get a drink or maybe play a casual game in another window. Having a bit more time to get back and get situated is nice. During peak times everyone would be ready right away theoretically and there wouldn’t be an additional wait.

FtXCommando

There are 3.5 people on average in a 3 minute queue. I am a 500 rating player. In the current queue, I do not know if those players are 200, 400, 600, 800, 1200, or 1800. In your system, I do.

Do you see this inclusion of this information as having zero impact on my decision-making as a player? I have no inclination to avoid searching because a player I often underperform against is online? Someone who is 200 rating above me is online?

With regards to C, you already have this time due to the introduction of a wait time that counts down. You are not suddenly and randomly thrust into a game. You are always put into a game at a set interval that counts down from whatever set time. I do not get how going into a game at the end of a countdown from 3:00 improves by making it 3:00 but you also add an increase of a 1:00 delay as well as a confirmation button to confirm you want to play.

Imagine you play ladder for 5 hours today. Now imagine instead of simply clicking the "Ladder" button, you also need to go and cycle in and hit the "Confirm" button.

Pros: you now see less afk players in game. Is this currently such a large problem?
Cons: you see more people fail to actually launch a game, you see more frustration as people need to hit another button to play, you see a larger wait time for the end user that was not actually told to them at the start.

epic-bennis

Ftx stop smoking truck tires. You type way to much and say way to little. Global rating is a system that works. You are creating a problem that doesn't exist, I would say most people are happy with global rating. And the alternatives you offer sound half baked and are even more speculative than your characterisation of the problem. Can we maybe focus on getting one queue to work (tmm) instead of trying to implement 2 more queues? Clearly there is a problem with the queue system.

Resetting tmm rating hasn't exactly helped much has it.

BlackYps

And what is currently the problem with the queue system?

Morax

@mize said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:

I like to use the Shit Sandwich approach.

First off let me say that I appreciate all the hard probably unpaid work that many of you guys do to make FAF work.

Now I want to point out that I have basically sat back for many years and seen FAF change over and over and over. Balance changes, eco changes, unit changes and such. many of them I really didn't care for.
IMHO many of these things were done to placate 1v1/ladder players.
Probably like many players we have just played and adapted for the love of the game, without much of a complaint. I also know and talk with many old FAF/GPG players who have left because of these changes.

And what the hell is this about some maps no longer being included in the global rating system? To me being an older adult this honestly seem petty. I don't care what maps players want to play. It's just like I say and live by "who cares if your gay or not" to each his/her own. Enjoy.

I want a commitment or pledge from the elected PC that He/She will not remove the global rating system.

FTX?
MORAX?
Penguin?

Again to all the people who work endlessly on this game. I applaud you. We need you and many more to make this work. I know i couldn't do it.

Mizer

I just answered this before you wrote this. It’s in post 293!

keyser

@shape-of-bennis said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:

Ftx stop smoking truck tires. You type way to much and say way to little. Global rating is a system that works. You are creating a problem that doesn't exist, I would say most people are happy with global rating. And the alternatives you offer sound half baked and are even more speculative than your characterisation of the problem. Can we maybe focus on getting one queue to work (tmm) instead of trying to implement 2 more queues? Clearly there is a problem with the queue system.

Resetting tmm rating hasn't exactly helped much has it.

I usually don't reply on this thread, but i need to speak up when seeing this.
I also usually ignore what benis write, but i think it's important to reply for the people reading this.

As ftx said trueskill hasn't been designed at all like it is being used now.
It is a tool to evaluate someone skill without bias. And applying that tool with custom game lead to big bias and a barely useful rating at the end.
What are the bias ?

ability to select your opponents : especially in our small community it is very easy to stack game even if the rating doesn't say it is.
ability to select map : This is a major bias, especially when people keep playing the same map, and reach abnormal rating in comparison to their skill.
select your position on the maps, etc

If we want to improve the game, it's going to be necessary to remove (or at least hide) this rating.
This will also help the community on several fronts :

it allow new player to start playing more easily, without getting kicked (help at player retention)
It will also help at reducing toxicity in game, especially in custom game where rating aren't at stake anymore. This lead to having custom game being used for what it main intend is : playing chill game modded or not (keeping global rating hidden with auto balance tool will make this game balanced-ish), while competitivness is handled by tmm.

Also to answer to mize about "elitist selecting map that will be rated" or whatever that was. As i explained this is required by default to get a useful rating. That's how it works in other games like sc2.