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Merge engineers into support engineers to circumvent pathing issues.

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  • A Offline
    advena @techmind_
    last edited by 11 Feb 2021, 15:43

    @techmind_ said in Merge engineers into support engineers to circumvent pathing issues.:

    The main problem is 1) shit pathfinding 2) small assist range.
    It's same shit pathfinding and bad range at all tiers.
    Kennels/hives fix both problems, kennels have worse bp but can fly anywhere.

    Pathfiding is not fixable, but better range is changeable.
    We need a way to contrate bp efficiently in specific area.

    Deploy button on engineers
    After deploy engineers cannot move and get double range effectively transforming into small hives

    No pathfinding - no problem

    V 1 Reply Last reply 11 Feb 2021, 16:58 Reply Quote 3
    • V Offline
      Valki @advena
      last edited by 11 Feb 2021, 16:58

      @advena said in Merge engineers into support engineers to circumvent pathing issues.:

      @techmind_ said in Merge engineers into support engineers to circumvent pathing issues.:

      The main problem is 1) shit pathfinding 2) small assist range.
      It's same shit pathfinding and bad range at all tiers.
      Kennels/hives fix both problems, kennels have worse bp but can fly anywhere.

      Pathfiding is not fixable, but better range is changeable.
      We need a way to contrate bp efficiently in specific area.

      Deploy button on engineers
      After deploy engineers cannot move and get double range effectively transforming into small hives

      No pathfinding - no problem

      Perfect for trapping ACU and other units.

      If it is just for Aeon and Seraphim, let them hover a fair distance above the ground and disable their movement and more importantly collisions.

      E 1 Reply Last reply 11 Feb 2021, 18:47 Reply Quote 0
      • E Offline
        Exselsior @Valki
        last edited by 11 Feb 2021, 18:47

        @Valki said in Merge engineers into support engineers to circumvent pathing issues.:

        Perfect for trapping ACU and other units.

        It's not really different than walking units into the acu to block it not sure why this would be an issue, sounds really hard to actually use this to block enemy acu especially with how fragile engineers are relatively speaking.

        V 1 Reply Last reply 12 Feb 2021, 10:54 Reply Quote 0
        • V Offline
          Valki @Exselsior
          last edited by 12 Feb 2021, 10:54

          @Exselsior said in Merge engineers into support engineers to circumvent pathing issues.:

          @Valki said in Merge engineers into support engineers to circumvent pathing issues.:

          Perfect for trapping ACU and other units.

          It's not really different than walking units into the acu to block it not sure why this would be an issue, sounds really hard to actually use this to block enemy acu especially with how fragile engineers are relatively speaking.

          Normal units are kicked round in these cases. If they cannot move and don't pathfind I don't think they can be kicked.

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • A Offline
            advena
            last edited by 12 Feb 2021, 20:14

            Deployed units are really unmovable. I thought ACU would bump them on way out.
            Looks like hard to use but still a problem.

            https://replay.faforever.com/13850527

            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • E Offline
              epic-bennis Banned
              last edited by 13 Feb 2021, 16:44

              Hey I have an even better idea:

              Make engineers able to merge intona factory to add their build power to it. I.e. naval fac. Or so. Greatly reduces pathfinding issues. Doesnt that sound useful?

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
              • E Offline
                epic-bennis Banned
                last edited by 13 Feb 2021, 16:47

                Or station them in it. Like in a carrier. So you can get them out and to another one.

                D 1 Reply Last reply 13 Feb 2021, 19:26 Reply Quote 2
                • A Offline
                  ANALyzeNoob
                  last edited by 13 Feb 2021, 17:00

                  I really love the idea of just adding bp into the factory by sacrificing engineers into it, though I could see us maybe wanting some upper limit on it. There would be pros and cons such as not possible to raid the bp with bombers or tanks, but also inability to repair the damaged factory. Allowing them to be stationed might go a little too far by giving tons of flexibility plus removing the risk of losing bp to bombers.

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                  • D Offline
                    Deribus Global Moderator @epic-bennis
                    last edited by 13 Feb 2021, 19:26

                    @BIG-BENNIS-MAGIC said in Merge engineers into support engineers to circumvent pathing issues.:

                    Or station them in it. Like in a carrier. So you can get them out and to another one.

                    Getting raided by an early bomber? Dump your engies into a nearby factory. Boom they're invincible now

                    V 1 Reply Last reply 13 Feb 2021, 19:39 Reply Quote 0
                    • V Offline
                      Valki @Deribus
                      last edited by 13 Feb 2021, 19:39

                      @Deribus said in Merge engineers into support engineers to circumvent pathing issues.:

                      @BIG-BENNIS-MAGIC said in Merge engineers into support engineers to circumvent pathing issues.:

                      Or station them in it. Like in a carrier. So you can get them out and to another one.

                      Getting raided by an early bomber? Dump your engies into a nearby factory. Boom they're invincible now

                      So make it a feature exclusive to Support Factories.

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • A Offline
                        advena
                        last edited by 14 Feb 2021, 20:01

                        Crunches, crunches everywhere...

                        Just limit deploy to T3 engineers

                        Some cost and BP increase also can be done for T2-T3 engineers but this is much more complicated suggestion to balance.

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • A Offline
                          ANALyzeNoob
                          last edited by 16 Feb 2021, 01:29

                          advena, if we limited it to t3 engies it would be pointless. The problem is t1 engie spam. And deploying them does absolutely nothing to reduce the raw number of t1 engies that will still mess up pathfinding badly, just slightly to the side.

                          If we stationing engies in a factory exclusively for support factories it would be much less effective because many people often have massive assist around their hq. So you could just apply it to HQs and support factories. Maybe everything except t1 factories would be ok? Do we want to apply this to nukes or smds or quantum gateways? Not sure, but it would be possible and would have the same kind of effects.

                          And maybe stationing engies would not be op even for t1 factories if there was a delay period for the engie where it is idled before moving in or out of the factory. Something like 15 seconds each way, or 20 seconds in, 10 out. Just throwing out some numbers. Anyway, this would mean you are still fairly vulnerable to raids, and lose a bit of build time for the ability to station engies.

                          V 1 Reply Last reply 16 Feb 2021, 14:47 Reply Quote 0
                          • V Offline
                            Valki @ANALyzeNoob
                            last edited by Valki 16 Feb 2021, 14:47

                            @PheatherNoob said in Merge engineers into support engineers to circumvent pathing issues.:

                            advena, if we limited it to t3 engies it would be pointless. The problem is t1 engie spam. And deploying them does absolutely nothing to reduce the raw number of t1 engies that will still mess up pathfinding badly, just slightly to the side.

                            Indeed, the amount of t1 engineers that reasonably ends up in the lategame needs to be sheltered in a single factory for this to work.

                            @PheatherNoob said in Merge engineers into support engineers to circumvent pathing issues.:

                            If we stationing engies in a factory exclusively for support factories it would be much less effective because many people often have massive assist around their hq. So you could just apply it to HQs and support factories. Maybe everything except t1 factories would be ok? Do we want to apply this to nukes or smds or quantum gateways? Not sure, but it would be possible and would have the same kind of effects.

                            And maybe stationing engies would not be op even for t1 factories if there was a delay period for the engie where it is idled before moving in or out of the factory. Something like 15 seconds each way, or 20 seconds in, 10 out. Just throwing out some numbers. Anyway, this would mean you are still fairly vulnerable to raids, and lose a bit of build time for the ability to station engies.

                            Support and HQ sounds wise indeed, good point.

                            T1, just no, every week there is at least one time I spam out T1 air in the late T1 phase. This should be visible and punishable.

                            Quantum Gateways... no assist patch could be coming and is better.

                            Nuke and SMD, absolutely not. If a player is spamming out nukes it should be very visible.

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • A Offline
                              ANALyzeNoob
                              last edited by 20 Feb 2021, 05:35

                              I agree that there would need to be some visible indicator how much bp has been added for nukes and smds because it is such critical info you scout for. I doubt we want to bother with something like that, so I can agree with just HQs and support factories, because it's not too big of a problem for t1 factory assist anyway. If they nerf ras sacus I wouldn't have a problem with quantum gateways though.

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • H Offline
                                humanpotatoe
                                last edited by 11 Apr 2021, 03:22

                                i like the deploying engineer idea or merging them based on tech level using a mass to merge inefficiency ratio so 5 t1 engys become a t2 and 12 t1 engys become a t3 engineer to discourage blatantly spamming t1 engys and expecting a 100% conversion ratio with no penalties

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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