Not the novax again
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Once more you are summoned to talk about the novax
More and more commonly in voice chat and in game chat we encounter remarkes about the dreaded novax, "you made novax ima cntrl-k" and so on, it seems players really dont like this thing.
The first part if this thread isnt to discuss about what should be done but should anything actually be done, if we establish the basics then we can work on from there.
Point 1.
Create a link on the FAF front page "news" that asks one simple question in order to establish the thoughts of community.
Do you think the novax needs a change?
Not how or why just yes or no.
based on the answers recieved if 50% or higher no then we can end the conversation there, if 50% or higher yes, then we can openly discuss as a community how that change should come about.
Point 2. Possible changes.
I have spent the last few weeks making novax balance mods based on suggestions given in multiple other threads and by friends so that players can actually test and visualise these ideas in game.
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Novax rework. A general Nerf that changes things like build cost movement speeds and adds energy drain the the beam weapon.
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Novax Range limit. Puts a hard limit on how far the satellite can travel from the Novax Base.
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Novax manual Fire. forces the player to order every attack Like a TML no quing orders (my personal favourite) as its less of a nerf on the unit and more of an APM tax on the player
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Damage over distance, reduces damage done the further the satellite travels from the Novax Base.
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Factory, allows you to make multiple sats from one factory, (putting all your eggs in one basket) but requires less space and easier to protect.
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Weapon distance, puts a weapon range limit on the satellite so that past a certain distance from the novax base the weapon deactivates and becomes a spy satellite only (weapon reactivates when back in range)
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Reduce damage to shields by 60 %
Granted im not the best moder out there, these mods are just to showcase how these ideas would play out in a game, If any of these ideas were chosen to be implemented you should not judge the idea based soley on one of my mods as I expect actual implementation would be carried out by much more skilled individuals than myself.
If you have any other ideas/feedback about how these mods could be improved please let me know, the only mod I have yet to make that is a popular suggestion is the SMD>Novax mod.
Thanks for reading and happy gaming!
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I would like to hear from the balance team on the current state of affairs. Is the Novax discussed at all or it it being considered to be in a good place?
I very much dislike the current Novax - makes the game worse for mentioned reasons (see other thread).
Thank you, Caliber, for having a look at potential changes. -
I like the current novax
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@Ninrai To summarize the old balance team discussion: it's balanced economically, so a lot of stat changes get rejected, but despite that it's still an annoying unit because it is a cheap precision artillery piece. Since that's a fundamental issue with the role of the unit, it was just put away because nobody has a good idea for a new role that fits the UEF roster, and there's just a lack of interested devs and team activity to test stuff. Removal of omni was mentioned quite favorably so that's an easy change.
Personally I like the idea of nerfing turret aim rate like in caliber's mod and giving energy firing cost while reducing the unit's mass cost. Nerfing aim fixes its genuinely OP part of killing t2 fabs or stalled shields, and makes it much less annoying when it tries to kill engi clumps on navy or that are rebuilding mex. Making its cost energy-drain focused makes T3 arty an even better counter to novax spam, so it would help lower-rated players who are fighting novax spam from a mass disadvantage.
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@Nomander Shame to hear it may be getting its turret aim rate heavily nerfed, it doesn't feel like it does almost anything to address what I think the main annoyance of the novax is (where it requires a lot more apm to defend against it than it does to attack it), yet removes a major use case/synergy for it where getting 1 novax and then t3 arti means your novax can (in addition to spotting for the t3 arti) be ready and if the t3 arti manages to bring the shields down the novax can capitalise by quickly killing the shields.
Nerfing the aim rate would instead mean there's less benefit in having a varied composition and instead promotes spamming the same unit more. This would be the case even moreso if the suggested change in discord (halving beam firing duration but doubling damage, so dps is unchanged but the period of time where damage is dealt is much shorter) which would make novax spam stronger and harder to defend against.
Having an energy drain cost and higher E cost to build I don't have much issue with since they wouldn't promote novax spam (if anything the reverse for the E cost to fire). That said, none of the changes feel like they would resolve the core issue where it's a lot easier to queue up attack orders on mexes with the novax and then check on it occasionally to make sure it's not firing at shielded mexes, vs defending against the novax by building shields in the core base and further afield mexes (and rebuilding any mexes killed by the novax).
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@maudlin27 you should check out the mod novax manual fire 2.0
I think it addressess the issue you mention in that it takes more apm do defend against than to use, in making the unit manual fire only you cant que up orders and have to spend time to micro the satellite and make shure its actually attacking things.
thats why its my favourite mod for the novax, because it doesnt really nerf the unit but makes it harder to get the most out of it.
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@maudlin27 I didn't like the aim rate for the same reasons as you but with Caliber's mod I got to test it out and it didn't seem that bad. You get enough time to retarget to kill 3 shields in a downed array but you don't get to kill 9 shields with the full 4860 damage, and you can't kill huge numbers of t2 fab caps just flying your novax over enemy mex.
That was my experience testing his 5s lifetime so maybe the even shorter 4s is too much of a nerf as you say. As for novax spam, I don't think the shorter lifetime is unfairly buffing it against shields. It's already easy to defend because it has low dps for its cost and no splash (you can stack shields without a worry). Assisting to survive even a 4s beam lifetime would take half as many T3 engis as assisting against the equivalent mass in T3 arty.That said, none of the changes feel like they would resolve the core issue where it's a lot easier to queue up attack orders on mexes with the novax and then check on it occasionally to make sure it's not firing at shielded mexes, vs defending against the novax by building shields in the core base and further afield mexes (and rebuilding any mexes killed by the novax).
My proposal does the most that can be done to minimize its OP parts vs t2 fabs and shields/spread out engis, and it even gives a huge buff to T3 arty fighting novax spam, which is already a great counter because it drains more mass for the cost, forces much heavier shielding than the novax does, and actually contributes potential to ending the game.
Anything more (like nerfing it vs exposed t3 mex) and you're running into its fundamental role as an artillery unit, which needs a complete rework to change. -
J Jip referenced this topic on
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Greetings,
I have some thoughts on the Novak, regarding its role other than as a precise alternative to artillery...The Novax is essentially artillery, hence its simple spam use in the late game. Since the Novax is incredibly accurate, this unit is more effective for the incidental destruction of small groups of targets, such as isolated Mex units.
It is proposed to rework the Novax into a cannon firing a charge that effectively knocks down shields, while dealing little damage to structures and units. This way, the Novax will become a support for artillery builds.
Additionally, make the satellite vulnerable to strategic missile defenses; for example, three missiles are needed to destroy a satellite... this would make the satellite an expensive way to defuse strategic missile defenses.
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Novax is fine as it is. Shields can be reinforced against it and because of this you need multiple Novaxes to punch through and destroy the shield. The cost of multiple novax is a major resource cost that leaves you vulnerable in other ways. Regular scouting will tell you if it's one Novax or they are going to farm Novax and you can adjust tactics accordingly.
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@zartan I'm shure it has been very easy do defend against in the last 2000 games of astro you have played.
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@Caliber Would much rather to fix or to balance out MML's and TMD's bit better then novax since those units dont really do much at all. Less so for TMD but still requires balance. xD
Novax is a late stage game ender and to be honest... it is pretty bad one since you need multiple of it to start doing anything.
Memes be memes.
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