About Neroxis map generator...
-
I have to say as someone that has always viewed ladder as more of a chore, and not something purely to have fun, playing mapgen 1v1s has actually been fun, even playing vs people like Blodir and Tex where I have a reasonable assumption I will not win. I personally believe that in the future, having it show up in ladder would be a plus.
-
@nine2 said in About Neroxis map generator...:
if only we could point out minor misunderstandings without aggression, we would be having a productive conversation instead of an antagonistic one
It would be nice if people would do their research and ask questions rather accuse the councilors of being unrealistic. For example, Tex, you need to actually respond to me when I say "you are on the ladder team" and not just be like "wait, what?!" ask where to go, see things, and interact. I see a lot of forum complaining rather meaningful action.
I see faults at both sides: explosions from the councilors for incompetence when they could show resources; and I also see people making ignorant complaints, unwilling to help with problems.
You cannot blame someone for losing their cool when they are constantly under attack and receive little help to meet the demands of many.
-
My issue is the following:
In this thread alone, we have one group of people, such as Blodir, Tex, Box, Tagada, Bennis, and Archsimkat(Head of 1v1 map pool I believe?). These are people who have either played map gen tourney, hosted a large number of mapgen games, are top 1v1 players, or are active on ladder, and these people are ALL in support of map gen and a possible limited inclusion in matchmaker. The people who are the most active in the micro community this change would effect seem to be overwhelmingly in favor of this change. This is not counting Morax, Resistance, Tatsu, and several other individuals who have voiced support for map gen.
This is primarily opposed by people who have not played ladder, played in the tourney, or played on map gen more then 1 or 2 games. These people then get defensive/aggressive when this fact is brought up, and the conversation gets railroaded into inaction. FTX claims that BO-whoring isn't a factor in ladder, (which he hasn't played in over 3 years), when myself, petric (in his map gen tournament forum post), and even biass, all acknowledge BO-whoring as a factor on authored maps. You also have unreasonable standards being set to prevent testing map gen in ladder by saying that "either it’s good enough to replace everything or it isn’t good enough to be in ladder.", or superficial flaws with map gen being blown up to a bigger effect then they rightfully should be (map doesn't look pretty).
And to bring up the point of a depressive tone, most of the negativity in this forum seems to be coming from those very same people. Comments like "Please do not try and be "superior" about it because you "play" ladder maps." "make better posts", or an entire post sarcastically breaking down the word 'assume', are far more antagonistic then myself pointing out that the word 'aesthetic' means something entirely different then what biass was using it for.
And @morax, that feels a little unfair to bring up a separate conversation we had yesterday, out of context, to this post. I was not even aware I was even on the discord channel for ladder team until you told me I was removed from it, how is that my fault? Also, if someone has been voted/appointed to a position of power/authority in this community, such as council of setons, player councilor, or in charge of map pool, I would expect them to not lose their cool when it comes to discussions that are directly under their responsibility as a community appointed member. I agree that these people get an unwarranted amount of hate, but that does not mean that every counter argument or criticism to their argument is an attack on their person.
TLDR: We like map gen. it would be fun to try and implement it into ladder for a month or so to see player reception to it. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but from where I am sitting right now, it seems like people want to give it a shot. And I have yet to hear a good argument against including it. If it is too difficult to code, or there are other problems that take priority, that is fine by me. But I dislike the argument that other people who don't ladder/play map gen know better then the people who do.
-
@Tex said in About Neroxis map generator...:
My issue is the following:
In this thread alone, we have one group of people, such as Blodir, Tex, Box, Tagada, Bennis, and Archsimkat(Head of 1v1 map pool I believe?). These are people who have either played map gen tourney, hosted a large number of mapgen games, are top 1v1 players, or are active on ladder, and these people are ALL in support of map gen and a possible limited inclusion in matchmaker. The people who are the most active in the micro community this change would effect seem to be overwhelmingly in favor of this change. This is not counting Morax, Resistance, Tatsu, and several other individuals who have voiced support for map gen.
This is primarily opposed by people who have not played ladder, played in the tourney, or played on map gen more then 1 or 2 games. These people then get defensive/aggressive when this fact is brought up, and the conversation gets railroaded into inaction. FTX claims that BO-whoring isn't a factor in ladder, (which he hasn't played in over 3 years), when myself, petric (in his map gen tournament forum post), and even biass, all acknowledge BO-whoring as a factor on authored maps. You also have unreasonable standards being set to prevent testing map gen in ladder by saying that "either it’s good enough to replace everything or it isn’t good enough to be in ladder.", or superficial flaws with map gen being blown up to a bigger effect then they rightfully should be (map doesn't look pretty).
And to bring up the point of a depressive tone, most of the negativity in this forum seems to be coming from those very same people. Comments like "Please do not try and be "superior" about it because you "play" ladder maps." "make better posts", or an entire post sarcastically breaking down the word 'assume', are far more antagonistic then myself pointing out that the word 'aesthetic' means something entirely different then what biass was using it for.
And @morax, that feels a little unfair to bring up a separate conversation we had yesterday, out of context, to this post. I was not even aware I was even on the discord channel for ladder team until you told me I was removed from it, how is that my fault? Also, if someone has been voted/appointed to a position of power/authority in this community, such as council of setons, player councilor, or in charge of map pool, I would expect them to not lose their cool when it comes to discussions that are directly under their responsibility as a community appointed member. I agree that these people get an unwarranted amount of hate, but that does not mean that every counter argument or criticism to their argument is an attack on their person.
TLDR: We like map gen. it would be fun to try and implement it into ladder for a month or so to see player reception to it. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but from where I am sitting right now, it seems like people want to give it a shot. And I have yet to hear a good argument against including it. If it is too difficult to code, or there are other problems that take priority, that is fine by me. But I dislike the argument that other people who don't ladder/play map gen know better then the people who do.
hear hear Tex the John Cleese of faf - someone give this guy a medal
-
For whatever it's worth as a lower rated player I'd also love to see map gen in ladder. Some of the most fun I've had on FAF recently has been playing map gen 1v1s, even when I'm vs people far better than me and I get crushed. I would 100% play more ladder if map gen was implemented in it, I've probably played over a dozen map gen games so far and all of them I've enjoyed more than certain human made maps in the ladder pool. It's also nice knowing I won't lose to some memorized BO on a map that I've never played before as a new ladder vs someone who only has cheesy map specific builds.
-
I would put you on blast for writing 5 off topic paragraphs as a moderator - if this conversation wasn't already over. Saying it again, someone figures out how to make it work (code) or nothing else happens here.
First, don't make some comment about the team being incompetent "because they don't play" and then cry about tone when you get backlash. If you can't take it, don't send it.
Did you forget you said this?
"But I guess seeing as how you don't actually play ladder maps, you need to evaluate them somehow..."Second, this play at "you don't play ladder games so you don't know" comment has existed since time immemorial - Even since tokyto era. It didn't mean anything of value then and it doesnt now. Playing our barebones mutiplayer ladder system teaches you NOTHING about how to properly manage both a pool and mutiple sets of player demographic expectations. I don't see how spamming 1v1 games suddenly enlightens you to some kind of managerial omnisciency.
You use FtX saying that BO whoring not being an impact is a consequence of him not playing ladder, and has an impact on his ability to run the pool. You've completely quoted this out of context. Sure, I stand by what I said about me being sick of BO whoring, but it is not an issue for the larger majority of the ladder playerbase - As was stated in the original post.
Sitting on this thread complaining about ladder team really doesn't do anything. We need people who are actually willing to contribute to a very heavy menial task and be able to innovate and be assertive. You were on the ladder team. And failed to do the basic effort of checking over your messages and asking questions that might put you into the right spot to help change things. Maybe if you did that (or even looked at/asked to look at the sheet once) you could learn the basics of how the system worked before you look the time to complain about it. I made the suggestion that you could start a temp WWPC for mapgen. The code isn't going to appear and you can further continue to play games wherein hopefully the novelty would wear off and more feedback can be given. I don't see any leagues yet, I doubt you even thought about it.
In closing:
"I like mapgen"
Cool, pass more feedback on, improve the product, and code the implementation."you don't play ladder"
Playing overwatch ranked (example) doesn't somehow give you insight in how the system works.
Don't see how FAF ladder would. You show your lack of understanding in your comments. Purely idiotic complaint.just close the thread dudes and move on.
-
Biass the snake supporting his fellow reptile ftx. Texbook cronism.
-
If you can make the case that either of us are unqualified, be my guest.
-
Biass is just salty people like random maps more than his and now he's gatekeeping ladder because of it "YOU'RE ALL HAVING FUN WRONG!!! LOOK THE SHITTY DECALS!!111". Thankfully it's up to more reasonable individuals whether mapgen comes to ladder or not. Hope they decide it's worth their coding efforts, knowing their work is appreciated.
-
Can't wait to see how biased moderation is.
-
@phong said in About Neroxis map generator...:
Biass is just salty people like random maps more than his
yOu aRe jUsT jEaLoUs
I love how these discussions devolve into shitflinging like 90% of the time after a few days. Need to soften the balance forum rules again so we get more of that.
-
i love it too
-
@phong dude, are you okay?
-
Its the year of covid man, no one is ok.
-
so anyways, back onto the topic :
@Askaholic said in About Neroxis map generator...:
It’s not too much work, but it will require some changes to the database schema, which means it will take a while for logistical reasons.
ok sounds good.
-
@Tex Have ftx and biass only been like this during the past year?.....
-
@CorvathraNoob said in About Neroxis map generator...:
@Tex Have ftx and biass only been like this during the past year?.....
It shows quite a lack of respect to start such a discussion.
-
CorvathraNoob said in About Neroxis map generator...:
@Tex Have ftx and biass only been like this during the past year?.....
I've always acted in what I think is the best interest of the playerbase in spite of everyone, including myself.
A mob of people throwing abuse like a pack of apes will not change that.Unless we already forgot about how we put in factional font colours and people literally could not read the UI anymore? Or how we "just tried out" rackover as a moderator and a large group of contributors including MisterK and even Downlord were gone or silent within the year due to the toxic enviroment?
Even yemkey, which was hastily put in the pool because the author threatened to leave FAF if it wasn't, clearly has consquences. I'm sick of doing this loop of rushing in new changes with no proper feedback and iteration cycles, and then eating shit for it.
I have to play the negative nancy in order for the naive to not shoot themself in the foot over and over.
You can self sabotage yourself with such trash comments as long as you want, just feel lucky that moderation is actually this incompetent.
-
Yah, this is kinda what I meant when I said unwarranted amount of hate. I'm with Jip on this one
And for the record Biass, I do appreciate the work and effort you and others in this community put in. Its just that sometimes from the other end it is not always apparent. More so in threads like this it looks like there is overwhelming support for a thing, and it feels like we are shouting into the wind and nothing will get done. I don't know how much of this is us being unreasonable, or you guys needing a better PR team, but I think that's a problem that won't go away any time soon without some work at fixing it.
-
Just some dev updates. We (as in mostly @Sheikah) have worked out the basics of how we need to change the database schema and have some code in the works.
Remember that TMM was created primarily in the spirit of facilitating casual play and enticing new players to stick around, so it is my hope that once we have the code changes in place, we can throw up a casual/unrated/global rating queue that incorporates some random maps. Regardless of where the discussion on competitive play goes, I think this is a valuable addition to the matchmaker.
