Will TML ever be balanced?

TheVVheelboy

New unit and breaks the balance. Not happening.

A Former User

For me, TML and SML are what forces tech level ups, not letting you to drag behind your opponent for long.

ComradeStryker

I can see many ways TMLs can be adjusted without altering them too much.
The first way, and probably the best way would be:

(Greatly) Increase the BP of the Structure and the BP cost of the Missile.

This will lower the effectiveness of assisting which slows down each consequent missile.
Not the BP required to build the structure itself, but the BP it has, similar to a Nuke Launcher.

Other simple options could be:

Increasing the BP cost of the projectile.
Increasing the BP cost of the structure.
Reduce the BP of the structure so it builds missiles slower.

Other more drastic options could be:

Increasing the resource costs of the structure.
Increasing the resource costs of the projectile.
Lowering the speed of the projectile.
Lowering the damage of the projectile.

I imagine as an overall missile theme, you'd want to keep the damage high, so, maybe reducing the damage is not the way to go.

I can see the BP being adjusted though.

~ Stryker

Valki

@xiaomao TML has to have worst game flow of any element in the game. When T3 arty begins firing you hear it, aside from noticing the investment. A small building, no warning, silent missiles.

Introducing missiles at T1 is one way to create such a flow without changing the TML itself. If TML is changed then fiddling BP is not the point I think, introducing a global cruise missile noise would do more.

veteranashe

Maybe add a sound that tmk has been launched like sml

TheWreck

the balance on tml is beyond awful every game you make twice the mass of the launcher simply in tmd to stop it even if it doesn't kill a single thing.Tml missiles should cost around 300 mass I think and the launcher should cost around 1800.

Sylph_

I've reached opposite conclusions - TMD being really cheap compared to the cost of TMLs!

I kinda dislike the fact that a turtle-type player can rely on very few TMD, whereas a player with map control needs many TMDs to protect their economy; but over time I've found that, provided an appropriate amount of resources have been dedicated to economy, the 'I have the whole map' player still tends to be able to defend against TMLs with a stronger economy, compared to the turtle.

OUTSIDE of such extreme turtle gameplay, I find the cost of TML and TMD to be pretty good - if TML were more expensive, I'd struggle to see any real use cases for it.
That being said, I'm talking very much from a 1v1 perspective. I thought that team games would shut down TML strategies even harder (since there tends to be less area that an individual player needs to cover with TMD), but I'm not experienced enough to anything more than 'reckon' here.

A Former User

Also, aren't they OP against experimentals? I was once even practicing on shooting down czars with them; result: gets easier the more you practice, but the effective range is not great.

veteranashe

That's really funny, you shouldn't say that though it probably will get patched out

Sladow-Noob

@snoog
I created a thread in the balance team channel, these are the results so far:

Stat wise, the TMLs
Sera needs 6.3 seconds / missile to launch
UEF needs 8.2
Aeon 8.8
Cybran 1.75

For now my proposed change was Cybran launcher 1.75sec -> 6sec. It got denied.
"There is no animation visually blocking the delay", "Build more TMD", "Cybran's area here is strong, therefore it's fine".
At least Farms agreed though.
Other ideas like "Make the building volatile" or adjusting more stats like nerfing the hp etc. are not possible as the team simply is not active enough. Hence the delay of this response.

Update:
Apparently it goes from 1.75 sec -> 3 sec now. Still way too small in my opinion, think about their arguments what you want, I tried my best.

BJ

The fact that they remove wrecks of anything they kill is pretty bullshit.
Other than that I don't really have problems with them.
@wtfboomnoob
Since the missiles need to be loaded I think the firing rate isn't really an issue.
I have never heard anyone complain more about cybran tml than any other.
Besides, UEF and Seraphim can strap a full fledged TML to their back and make it mobile, which is a way bigger deal. (and without testing it specifically I'm pretty sure they fire faster to)

I think that the problems with TML's are exactly the same as with Strat bombers, they have no conceivable counter of a lower tech level and you can't hold them back. I actually think the strat issue is way worse, but to stay on topic I won't go ranting about Air here.

Sladow-Noob

Don't get me wrong, I do not think that my nerf idea was enough to balance them. But it was something we could've done without a whole team voting.
The thought process behind that nerf in particular is that is was insanely punishing bc the moment you lost a TMD a cybran TML can kill 3-4 structures before your next TMD is up. Against other factions' TMLs you have more time to build the TMD.

snoog

The wreckage overkill remains the largest issue IMO.

That said, firing speed is important too. ACU's just received a 30s fire speed nerf recently, so it makes sense for cybran to be made in line with the others as well.

Sladow-Noob

@snoog said in Will TML ever be balanced?:

ACU's just received a 30s fire speed nerf recently,

What do you mean with this?

BJ

@snoog said in Will TML ever be balanced?:

The wreckage overkill remains the largest issue IMO.

That said, firing speed is important too. ACU's just received a 30s fire speed nerf recently, so it makes sense for cybran to be made in line with the others as well.

Wait wait WHAAAAT ?
I haven't been able to play for the past month, are you telling me backpack TML is can only fire 2 missiles per minute now ?

Sladow-Noob

@bj There was no chance to this that I am aware of.
Maybe he's referring to the billy delay as that one is 30 seconds before you can launch the next one.

I've tested it, there is no chance / bug with the ACU TML.

BJ

@wtfboomnoob
Thank you for the clarification,
I recently became quite fond of the TML backpack so I was a bit shocked.

I didn't know about the slow fire rate of the billy, but unless I'm mistaken, to achieve that fire rate you need to be dumping 100mass/s into the construction of the billy.
Not sure how necessary it is to slow ppl down beyond that, I mean sure if tehy have a paragon this gets silly, but they also have a paragon, things are gonna get silly.

Sladow-Noob

@bj You won't notice the cooldown at all if you only use a T3 ACU.
If you heavily assist with engis / kennels / hives though (which usually is the case) you'll get the impression it's bugged. At least I only learnt about the delay ~6 months ago and before that I always tried to walk and stop my ACU cuz I thought it was buggy.
The delay is there so you cannot spam 3 billies within 15 seconds (which is possible as you have the ressources for loading the billy after you upgraded it) and annihilate every land army on the map immediately.

snoog

Yea my bad, I wasn't aware that change was for the billy only.

Lowki

TML are by far the largest thing I dislike about this game;

they can reach a hella large distance so on large maps you have to build a lot of TMD so 1 TML = about 10 TMD
only built by t2 engies, so its even harder to spread TMD around, and if some try hard rushes TML launcher takes out your hq you can then no longer build T2 engies and the game is over.
To much damage only 2 to kill a un-upgraded com thats standing still and doesnt leave any mass behind when killing t2 mexes.
large capacity, so you can easily string 4-5 launches in a very small amount of time and kill opponents eco.
very cheap for a t2 unit can easily be made with t1 energy.