Will TML ever be balanced?

Sylph_

I've reached opposite conclusions - TMD being really cheap compared to the cost of TMLs!

I kinda dislike the fact that a turtle-type player can rely on very few TMD, whereas a player with map control needs many TMDs to protect their economy; but over time I've found that, provided an appropriate amount of resources have been dedicated to economy, the 'I have the whole map' player still tends to be able to defend against TMLs with a stronger economy, compared to the turtle.

OUTSIDE of such extreme turtle gameplay, I find the cost of TML and TMD to be pretty good - if TML were more expensive, I'd struggle to see any real use cases for it.
That being said, I'm talking very much from a 1v1 perspective. I thought that team games would shut down TML strategies even harder (since there tends to be less area that an individual player needs to cover with TMD), but I'm not experienced enough to anything more than 'reckon' here.

A Former User

Also, aren't they OP against experimentals? I was once even practicing on shooting down czars with them; result: gets easier the more you practice, but the effective range is not great.

veteranashe

That's really funny, you shouldn't say that though it probably will get patched out

Sladow-Noob

@snoog
I created a thread in the balance team channel, these are the results so far:

Stat wise, the TMLs
Sera needs 6.3 seconds / missile to launch
UEF needs 8.2
Aeon 8.8
Cybran 1.75

For now my proposed change was Cybran launcher 1.75sec -> 6sec. It got denied.
"There is no animation visually blocking the delay", "Build more TMD", "Cybran's area here is strong, therefore it's fine".
At least Farms agreed though.
Other ideas like "Make the building volatile" or adjusting more stats like nerfing the hp etc. are not possible as the team simply is not active enough. Hence the delay of this response.

Update:
Apparently it goes from 1.75 sec -> 3 sec now. Still way too small in my opinion, think about their arguments what you want, I tried my best.

BJ

The fact that they remove wrecks of anything they kill is pretty bullshit.
Other than that I don't really have problems with them.
@wtfboomnoob
Since the missiles need to be loaded I think the firing rate isn't really an issue.
I have never heard anyone complain more about cybran tml than any other.
Besides, UEF and Seraphim can strap a full fledged TML to their back and make it mobile, which is a way bigger deal. (and without testing it specifically I'm pretty sure they fire faster to)

I think that the problems with TML's are exactly the same as with Strat bombers, they have no conceivable counter of a lower tech level and you can't hold them back. I actually think the strat issue is way worse, but to stay on topic I won't go ranting about Air here.

Sladow-Noob

Don't get me wrong, I do not think that my nerf idea was enough to balance them. But it was something we could've done without a whole team voting.
The thought process behind that nerf in particular is that is was insanely punishing bc the moment you lost a TMD a cybran TML can kill 3-4 structures before your next TMD is up. Against other factions' TMLs you have more time to build the TMD.

snoog

The wreckage overkill remains the largest issue IMO.

That said, firing speed is important too. ACU's just received a 30s fire speed nerf recently, so it makes sense for cybran to be made in line with the others as well.

Sladow-Noob

@snoog said in Will TML ever be balanced?:

ACU's just received a 30s fire speed nerf recently,

What do you mean with this?

BJ

@snoog said in Will TML ever be balanced?:

The wreckage overkill remains the largest issue IMO.

That said, firing speed is important too. ACU's just received a 30s fire speed nerf recently, so it makes sense for cybran to be made in line with the others as well.

Wait wait WHAAAAT ?
I haven't been able to play for the past month, are you telling me backpack TML is can only fire 2 missiles per minute now ?

Sladow-Noob

@bj There was no chance to this that I am aware of.
Maybe he's referring to the billy delay as that one is 30 seconds before you can launch the next one.

I've tested it, there is no chance / bug with the ACU TML.

BJ

@wtfboomnoob
Thank you for the clarification,
I recently became quite fond of the TML backpack so I was a bit shocked.

I didn't know about the slow fire rate of the billy, but unless I'm mistaken, to achieve that fire rate you need to be dumping 100mass/s into the construction of the billy.
Not sure how necessary it is to slow ppl down beyond that, I mean sure if tehy have a paragon this gets silly, but they also have a paragon, things are gonna get silly.

Sladow-Noob

@bj You won't notice the cooldown at all if you only use a T3 ACU.
If you heavily assist with engis / kennels / hives though (which usually is the case) you'll get the impression it's bugged. At least I only learnt about the delay ~6 months ago and before that I always tried to walk and stop my ACU cuz I thought it was buggy.
The delay is there so you cannot spam 3 billies within 15 seconds (which is possible as you have the ressources for loading the billy after you upgraded it) and annihilate every land army on the map immediately.

snoog

Yea my bad, I wasn't aware that change was for the billy only.

Lowki

TML are by far the largest thing I dislike about this game;

they can reach a hella large distance so on large maps you have to build a lot of TMD so 1 TML = about 10 TMD
only built by t2 engies, so its even harder to spread TMD around, and if some try hard rushes TML launcher takes out your hq you can then no longer build T2 engies and the game is over.
To much damage only 2 to kill a un-upgraded com thats standing still and doesnt leave any mass behind when killing t2 mexes.
large capacity, so you can easily string 4-5 launches in a very small amount of time and kill opponents eco.
very cheap for a t2 unit can easily be made with t1 energy.

Firv

@wtfboomnoob said in Will TML ever be balanced?:

@bj You won't notice the cooldown at all if you only use a T3 ACU.
If you heavily assist with engis / kennels / hives though (which usually is the case) you'll get the impression it's bugged. At least I only learnt about the delay ~6 months ago and before that I always tried to walk and stop my ACU cuz I thought it was buggy.
The delay is there so you cannot spam 3 billies within 15 seconds (which is possible as you have the ressources for loading the billy after you upgraded it) and annihilate every land army on the map immediately.

1 random loyalist and your billy ACU is a very sad boy anyway. It is such an hard counter to Billy its not even funny

Sladow-Noob

@firv At least you can shoot down your own billy now though. Also Cybran needs it as their army has no shields so you'd always kill 15k+ mass with each shot the moment they push out of TMD / static shields.

jusbeginning

Slightly off-topic but TML related
Q: what if you reclaim your own TML (considering it obsolete for whatever reason at that time). Do you get more mass if you reclaim it while it has still missiles loaded? Or is it the same deal regardless of missile content?

Sladow-Noob

@jusbeginning Regardless of missile count, the amount of reclaim remains the same.

jusbeginning

@wtfboomnoob
Thanks for confirming

Firv

@wtfboomnoob said in Will TML ever be balanced?:

@firv At least you can shoot down your own billy now though. Also Cybran needs it as their army has no shields so you'd always kill 15k+ mass with each shot the moment they push out of TMD / static shields.

Maybe, it just feels so wrong that a single unit can completly nullify a very expensive upgrade. Basicly when I see thats there is cybran land on the field, i don't even think about the billy upgrade anymore.