How come you don't play ladder?

@arma473 said in How come you don't play ladder?:

@blackyps said in How come you don't play ladder?:

it doesn't even matter if "BO" is a relevant factor in your ladder performance. What's important is that people feel like it matters

I disagree

Lots of people think BO doesn't really matter

Then they try out ladder

They have a bad opening, they stall/overflow, they get rekt

remember that everyone overestimates their abilities at RTS until they actually try to play the game

so I don't think people are just imagining that BOs are important. And I don't think it's just perception that's the problem. The problem is the reality that BOs are important

But how can you make BOs less important without neutering the start of the game? If the first 5 minutes of every match don't really matter, that's not fun. You'd have to wait 5 minutes every single match in order for anything interesting to happen.

By making it harder to assassinate enemy engis with your 5 unit lead from BO win and shifting power to less impactful things eg. making it easier to kill t1 mex, pgen, mby even hydro. And then as a followup create more interest after the expansion period by buffing aggression in t2/t3 stage.

To some extent the game will always be very volatile in the expansion phase given how mex and natural reclaim work. At the beginning you double, triple, even 10x your economy within a few minutes time. It's not surprising that it creates volatility compared to later stages where you are growing by like 10% every minute.

However the volatility can be somewhat mitigated by balance changes and map pool.

I know the objective of this thread wasn't to suggest fixes but it seems to me like the main blockers are:

-Fear
-BO related sweatyness on classic maps
-5x5 maps that don't allow teching
-20x20 maps that give depression because there's too much going on and we're only human.

So uuh, 7.5km and 10x10km mapgen would fix like 3/4 of these, right?

@derpfaf said in How come you don't play ladder?:

-Fear

Would you be willing to share a bit more about this topic, if it's not too much trouble? I'm genuinely curious and interested in expanding this bit more.

I can try. 1v1 Ladder games can be a pretty isolating and stressful experience, especially in a game like FAF where there's more things happening simultaneously than you can properly deal with. On top of that there's always the constant threat of the unknown from your opponent who has been working their hardest in the fog of war somewhere to come up with a way to kill you for the last 15 minutes.

I think getting crushed in FAF is a morale destroying experience you just don't really get in other RTS games. It has a unique hopelessness and depression to it that I think its mostly due to the overwhelming amount of things that can be going on at the same time, the large size of some maps, and the eco scaling/power stalling mechanic that results in thoughts like: "I think i am behind and the game is lost, but its going to take another 10 minutes of losing till I die."

I watch/cast quite a few 1v1 games with friends all in the same voice channel and during a close match, its not unusual for BOTH players to feel hopeless and behind the entire time.

This 'Fear of a bad experience' is the main reason ladder doesn't appeal to the majority IMO.

@derpfaf said in How come you don't play ladder?:

I know the objective of this thread wasn't to suggest fixes but it seems to me like the main blockers are:

-Fear
-BO related sweatyness on classic maps
-5x5 maps that don't allow teching
-20x20 maps that give depression because there's too much going on and we're only human.

So uuh, 7.5km and 10x10km mapgen would fix like 3/4 of these, right?

I totally feel this. I basically despair when I see a 20x20 because I can't handle all the eco.

I think people experience similar anxiety in every game that has a ranked queue mode. Even in Hearthstone a lot of people talked about ladder anxiety.

@thomashiatt
While it's true, in my and my friends experience the more overwhelming the game is the more daunting the ranked 1v1's are. And honestly with how Supcom plays and how long and stressful the games can be it's only given that the 1v1's are gonna be really hard to get into, they just take a massive toll on the player unless it's small 5x5 or rather comfy 10x10. In other games while the ranked mode can be daunting, the games honestly tend to be faster and less of a commitment compared to macro RTS like faf.

For example I can just jump in and play 2-3 fast games with aggro deck in MTG arena and call it a day, or in WoT I can just play OP tank and not have to stay on top of my game to not ruin my stats during a 5-10min match. But in faf I might get to play a 30 minute slugfest that requires me to stay at the top of my game for the whole game. Same with league where if I Q ranked I have to expect to give it my 100% for the next 20-35 minutes keeping track of the info and dancing around with opponents.

But team games or just casual games give me the leeway of actually playing at 70-80% of my skill and having a good time instead of pulling out my hair trying to control the whole map by myself. Anyway, RTS 1v1 and other games requiring taking in plethora of information are just mentally taxing and after whole day of work I don't really wanna work my ass in game too.

Ladder is a lot more intense for me than teamgames other than maybe really good 2v2s. It sucks losing on ladder way more for me anyway.

It's true that the opening is really important and so is general map knowledge. This leads to convincing results on some maps. You will be very confident on one map, the other guy will have the advantage on another but this is not a big deal unless you are playing very few games. I can definitely see how it is a larger issue at lower ranks.

I think ladder players are actually really boring as well, I rarely have someone do anything interesting against me. Everyone is doing a poor copy of something they saw someone else do. A bit of creativity would go a long way towards making games more fun. It's also very satisfying to win in unconventional ways.

@ftxcommando said in How come you don't play ladder?:

See, I see BO complaints as protection of ego. It's the same as teamgame "shit team, i won lane, gg." You don't see BO whining in teamgames much because you got the noob team ego protection.

Give it a bit and map gen develops its own ego cope, the problem is fully psychological and people unable to accept someone they view as worse getting a lucky game win or simply being better at them in some matter of the game.

That's certainly an important factor. I don't think that map gen will develop the same level of ego cope, because there is less obvious stuff to blame. People know from experience that familiarity with the map is a factor, so it is incredibly easy to latch onto that to deflect the blame for a loss. I don't see anything similarly obvious to blame once the maps are random, so it's still worthwhile to address this.

@thomashiatt said in How come you don't play ladder?:

I think people experience similar anxiety in every game that has a ranked queue mode. Even in Hearthstone a lot of people talked about ladder anxiety.

never experienced anxiety in any other game's ranked mode, but then again I never played multiplayer in general in any other rts

@blackyps said in How come you don't play ladder?:

@ftxcommando said in How come you don't play ladder?:

See, I see BO complaints as protection of ego. It's the same as teamgame "shit team, i won lane, gg." You don't see BO whining in teamgames much because you got the noob team ego protection.

Give it a bit and map gen develops its own ego cope, the problem is fully psychological and people unable to accept someone they view as worse getting a lucky game win or simply being better at them in some matter of the game.

That's certainly an important factor. I don't think that map gen will develop the same level of ego cope, because there is less obvious stuff to blame. People know from experience that familiarity with the map is a factor, so it is incredibly easy to latch onto that to deflect the blame for a loss. I don't see anything similarly obvious to blame once the maps are random, so it's still worthwhile to address this.

Eh, you lose on a trans rush map you might blame map or you might blame balance team. I guess on map gen it shifts more to blaming balance team but I still see PLENTY of dudes whining about shit generation losing them games because “boring” “it’s a shit game” “didnt try” etc

(i am roughly 400 in 1v1, 850 in 4v4. also sorry for the novel. i have thoughts on this being on the lower end and very interested in growing.)

the map pools, i really like that low ratings have their map pools restricted to prevent overwhelming them but at the same time i think some of the maps put into the lower ratings are straight up "you learn X or lose your rating instantly". which is a practical necessity and i really do appreciate that, but having to play navy heavy/cut up maps at this rating in 1v1 fucking sucks ass. crossfire canal, point of reach, eye of the storm, and seraphim glaciers are all maps that dissuade me from queueing up for 1v1. 4v4 doesnt have this issue as much as i can rely on others for help if need be.

300 customs vs 354 ladder. i strongly prefer matchmaking over customs due to the rampant astrogap. however my experience on 1v1 ladder is mixed. sometimes its a glhf; ggs, and go next. sometimes its silence and gameplay. but sometimes its screaming cyrllic.

at first i played more customs while learning the game, but i've reached a point where if its not a mapgen or standard-ish map, im either incredibly bored or instantly convinced im dead weight and will lose the game. since growing a hatred for astrogap and its fanatics, i've gravitated towards MM heavily. the longer i stay around, the more i stick to MM.

a steadier progression for lower ratings to the real various stuff like 20/15km, navy heavy maps. i know it sounds scrubby as fuck but when i open the map pool and see crossfire canal, theres a real heavy chance i just wait till the next pool. or even a map veto. a map veto would probably make me feel a shit ton better about queueing in. knowing theres a chance that it'd roll a map i just do not want to play and can not begin to give it my all being rerolled would keep me hanging in there, even if it rolls the maps i dont want to play, multiple times.

my ultimate problems with ladder is the map pool stuff. there are maps i have negative fun playing and would genuinely rather crtl+k as soon as i drop into them. take the points, i'd rather keep my time and sanity. maybe spend that time in a lobby waiting 45 minutes for 2 people to join and instantly leave. at first i thought how BOs worked in this game was really cool. how it was so different map to map. having crawled my way through the game a bit, i can safely say that i actually really dislike this. its variable to a degree i cant properly wrap my head around. which compounds with the map pools feeling like the actual gate keeper.

i want to add that i fully understand a majority of what i said is skill issue, but they're skill issues that i have a hard to justifying attempts at too seriously. ideally, i would enjoy 1v1 up to the point where things start to get really slow/schedule-y. then at that point it'd be customs or smurf, one of which is banable. (thankfully i'll never be good enough to get to that point)

What made you stop playing ladder
There is no growth over 2400, everything is dead here, and returning to the previous ratings in order to spend more time returning those times where the rating was the main motivator is pointless for me, it separates me, only 1-2 games from the status of top 1 in ladder rating, and this is not particularly interesting. Also in the days of FTH, we used to have monthly leagues with a prize pool, now we don't, and wasting time training your opponents for LOTS is a stupid decision. It is much more logical to reduce the time due to custom 1v1, between people who are already pillars.
And also Last time I searched ladder "i feel like it was against tex" when I searched around 14 hours from my day to 5 of night to get sniped and Tex out, so I dont want to back this disgusting state.
Have you tried a ladder game? If so, what has the experience been to date?
No. I am 1200.
How much often did you play it before?
Around ~5-10 hours per day.
What would motivate you to play ladder once more or try it out.
Idk about month leagues with a money, there still a issue, with a training somebody or 1800+ is 1.8k guy having many games, at the time of 2.4 maybe get at least 1 game per day.
Here the trend of personal gain persists. If I play, my opponent will become stronger, and it is not profitable for me. Teaching <1800 people something is sensible as they still have a lot to improve. And playing with over 2,200 people is like sticking a stick in a bicycle wheel. From an ethical perspective, people over 2.2k are motivated by monetary rewards. 2k-2.2 Improving skills for tournaments and honing skills. 1k-2k is just afk gameplay between people who don't understand why they even play it.
Also, people who play ladder are prone to self-harm, suicide, and so on. Few people like to be kicked, hit and broken in every game over and over again, which makes you stronger in some way. It's easier to go play a gap, people tend to drink beer after work and go to crush the forest on the gap, than to go on a ladder and strain 1/10 of their possible intelligence, attributing everything to the fact that: - OH THERE IS ONLY SPAM. - He has so many t1 units that it's not even fun to play. - BO is too strong and other things.
You won't see any complicated builds on the ladder, they break. Here it's more about the ability to use units / efficiency / balance and a certain template where you play from reclaim, mexs, and control over territories with a profit.
Do you want to increase your online ladder? Encourage player growth. Do you want to see a quality TMM? Fix team balance. Want to see - work on it, it's an empty message cloud at 104, does nothing. Idea-Work-Success? Failure, such is the cycle. And there is nothing more to discuss here. Hard modes should have a system of growth and rewards. Easy modes, low quality.
What you find uninviting about it since you have not tried it?
I tryed, read up blob.

@tomma for example some ppl are always unprecise and don't immediately notice that they should open a second air factory and transporter immediately to get the mass somewhere.

also, you are 1800 so you know how to counter, recover and most importantly scout your opponent and know what they are doing / .. for ppl around 1k .. they lose immediately if the other guy rushes the gun in under 5 minutes. or they see ppl doing things that don't make any sense unless its a premade plan

I don't want to play ladder

@blast_chilled said in How come you don't play ladder?:

I don't want to play ladder

Could you share what inspired you to make that statement?

@hinthunter This post inspired me

I did play some ladder years back, then went away from the game entirely. Returning now has been painful, mostly because I just can not play at the level I played back then. Actually, I think there has been some rating deflation while I was away. I see players now doing stuff that was reserved for quite a bit higher rated players back then.

Even after trying to shake off the rust for a while, I am still far from my previous level. In custom games, with some many other players involved, my rating does not get easily adjusted, and in many cases people will yell at me for underperforming. In 1v1, which the question was about, I always feel it is hopeless. Judging by how many points I am losing per one ladder game, I will have to try, and lose, a truly depressing amount of games for the system to adapt.

Regarding map size: I am surprised to read that many of you hate the 5km maps. When I was better, I had no problem with them. They were like fast food: pleasurable and quickly consumed. I was somewhat better on larger maps though.

Now, 5km maps are my best chance. I will cap the core mexes, build a couple of factories, set rally points and send the commander straight through the middle. In a few minutes someone is going to explode. By reducing the game to this simplified situation, the effect of the skill gap is minimized. I admit that if I get a larger map, I will be tempted to just press alt+f4.

Reading more of the replies, I remembered one thing that I would like to add:
Get rid the big rocks and wrecks that you should be manually reclaiming. What they do is to make the game more BO dependent.

ur a npc if you don't ctrl k in the first 3min because of e stall or whatever depression and don't forget the new "pro's" who only care about rating and just go for cheesy snipes