Nuke Sub Rework
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Pathfinding on the water is a pain...
And even a proper nuke doesn't do much damage to naval vessels.I would like to see these get adjusted so they're more effective.
Difficult to say how, but I think FtX here, is on to something.
~ Stryker
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Doesn't do much damage? It literally eradicates whole navy if it hits. Most of the time it doesn't hit cuz it's shot from far away.
That's one of the reasons submarine have such low damage compared to normal one, cuz it's so much friggin easier to hit big clumps of units. -
How many bs would you say a nuke generally hits? I don’t think I’ve seen it hit more than 3. Would a billy at that radius be OP? It would for land armies but you could then mess with the cost of nuke subs themselves to make them more and more infeasible on maps with little water.
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@casternumerouno said in Nuke Sub Rework:
Doesn't do much damage? It literally eradicates whole navy if it hits. Most of the time it doesn't hit cuz it's shot from far away.
That's one of the reasons submarine have such low damage compared to normal one, cuz it's so much friggin easier to hit big clumps of units.Navy units don't really clump up unless a player tells them to do so or the map/pathfinding forces it.
Even then, nukes almost never do much damage because of how tanky naval units are at the T3 stage - which is when the Nukes start rolling off.
And some factions even have shields to protect their vessels, meaning less damage, too. (UEF)
~ Stryker
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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Not even a tempest survives a nuke, unless it has like 2 vet and full hp.
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Navy units do clump up all the time when you are using them to their fullest potential. Watch any late game fight and you will see all the BS, shieldboats etc clumped up in a big half circle to make them as effective as possible in a fight.
Nukes do no damage? Anything in their main radius evaporates, unless I missed something and now most units have over 70k HP which I doubt. Only reason you don't really see nuke subs nuke navy is cuz they have way lower damage that is better suited to getting rid of buildings. Otherwise I can 100% assure you, you would have players, me included use them as anti navy nuke. Dodging nuke from over 600 units is already not always entirely successful, now try doing it from 100units away.
Nukes always ignored shields. The shieldboats won't do shit.
@FtXCommando
It mostly comes down to the fact that usually you have nukes flying at you from around 600 units away. So it's hard to hit dead center navy if enemy player pays attention. But if you were to give them proper nuke they would become IMO oppressive AF as you cut down the available reaction time by around half when firing away from 100 units away.But making it more billy like sure. That could be way better rather than outright buffing them like BlackYps suggests.
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Would you want nuke subs to have little range if they had a billy nuke with high aoe in order to discourage their use on non-major navy maps?
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@casternumerouno
Are you aware that Nuke subs deal a third of the damage that static nukes do?
25,000 damage at the T3 stage is just not even half of what some battleships have.
Shields can reduce the damage taken from nukes, too.
Could've sworn they did, lol.
~ Stryker
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Are you trolling me right now?
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Oh, guess I'm wrong on the shield part.
My bad. Whoops.But again, nuke subs still deal a third of the damage.
The Summit would survive with just about 1K HP requiring a third nuke to finish it off.
Nukes against navy are almost never worth it in my experiences, unless you're guaranteed to cause heavy damage or if you just have a Yolo.
Most players I know automatically just spread their navy when they hear the Nuke alert, too...
~ Stryker
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@comradestryker said in Nuke Sub Rework:
Pathfinding on the water is a pain...
And even a proper nuke doesn't do much damage to naval vessels.you said a “proper nuke” bro what is a “proper nuke” if not an SML nuke
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Proper being directly on their head or in their inner damage circle.
Most of the time, a nuke sub only gets like 5 frigates, a cruiser, and a destroyer.
The ships that are the threat stay alive and continue to be a threat. (Most of the time... Battleships are the threat)A static Nuke would fair better but only because of its damage.
That's why you almost never see nuke subs nuking navy, as Caster mentioned.Which is the whole point of this post... to give nuke subs a better role in navy, no?
~ Stryker
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The reduced damage of sub nukes plus the current radius makes it pretty hard to kill T3 navy with it, at best you can only use it to force them out of position
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Here's an out-there idea: make strategic subs T4, give them powerful long range torpedos, and leave their tac missiles and strategic missiles as is. Cybran has stealth and maybe slightly faster move speed, Aeon has a shield, UEF has jamming + more hp. Sera probably needs something here but not sure what tbh. Buff their t3 subs damage and health and increase its cost? Give them their own strategic sub? Not sure.
To go even further, add one more minute to the nuke build time and make it the same damage as a land based nuke, but now it takes two extra minutes to build and not the current one extra. The nuke sub nuke arbitrarily doing less damage doesn't make much sense and isn't something a new person might realize.
Something key here: most of the balance and cost for this would be around them being powerful long range torpedo support. The nuke and tml are, to an extent, fun extras. I'd want this unit to be able to be built with no intention of using the nuke. The nuke is to mostly make it viable after navy is won, like battleships are with their shore bombardment, and the tml is just too fun to snipe SMDs with when they're not paying attention to get rid of.
My issue with billy nuke subs is basically that I think as soon as the first one is fire you now have a very tedious back and forth of building and sniping tmd or having enough cruisers in the right spots which sounds not super fun to play. I also think billy subs would be very apm intensive to max their value and high level navy play is already highly apm intensive imo.
Quick edit: To be clear I would not be for normalizing damage between nuke subs and static launchers without increasing the build time by at least a full minute, and that's at a minimum. Way too strong otherwise imo. Also, I suppose this wouldn't necessarily have to be a t4 unit.
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@exselsior said in Nuke Sub Rework:
make strategic subs T4, give them powerful long range torpedos, and leave their tac missiles and strategic missiles as is.
Expecting them to perform in three roles is a bit much. Most T4 (and most units in general) have a single role, and sometimes are half-way capable in a second.
Another option to nerf the nuke capability might be to require a SML (like T2/T3 factories require an HQ). Then nuke-subs may be a viable path to exhaust SMD missiles.
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Another option to nerf the nuke capability might be to require a SML (like T2/T3 factories require an HQ). Then nuke-subs may be a viable path to exhaust SMD missiles.
Are you thinking of them behaving like terrans ghosts in sc were they deliver the stored nukes?
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One of the strongest aspects of nuke subs is that they are discrete ways to deliver nukes-- they are not static land structures, they are underwater mobile units that don't display whether they are building a nuke or not... it would suck to have to build a land sml to shoot sub nukes
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@cyborg16 said in Nuke Sub Rework:
@exselsior said in Nuke Sub Rework:
make strategic subs T4, give them powerful long range torpedos, and leave their tac missiles and strategic missiles as is.
Expecting them to perform in three roles is a bit much. Most T4 (and most units in general) have a single role, and sometimes are half-way capable in a second.
I don't think this is 3 roles anymore than the czar has three roles as good aa, good anti ground, and a factory + air staging. It's at best two roles as a strong torpedo ship + mobile SML, and even then as I said I'd want the torpedos to be the point. The TML has always been mostly pointless and only gets real value when the enemy makes what's arguably a big mistake. It's stupidly easy to counter nuke sub tml.
Another option to nerf the nuke capability might be to require a SML (like T2/T3 factories require an HQ). Then nuke-subs may be a viable path to exhaust SMD missiles.
This drastically weakens the nuke aspect of it when that's already quite niche as FTX pointed out in the main post.
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Idea that crosses my mind is missile-bombardment. Imagine UEF T2 cruiser having a child with a T3 static arty. The sub gets a single charge for a 'Strategic Missile Barrage', which when used, fires ~8 tactical missiles that actually have bonkers AOE (like T3 static arty, say 6) and quite solid damage (say 3-4k per missile). All of the missiles are launched at once, and they are spread out semi-randomly within an area about the size a nuke would usually damage. The missiles are tactical, which means TMD works against them, but they have say 2x HP (compared of conventional tacs from MMLs). They would still take a while to recharge, but not 5 or 7 or however many minutes they take atm, but say 2-3. It would also have limited range, but at least twice that of the battleships.
If you did this, you also eliminate some other problems (I didn't read everything people wrote, just the first 15ish posts): you don't have to remove TMD capabilities of battleships, and it's not countered by a single static TMD. If you pair them up with a couple of cruisers, then there's an even higher chance you get them to hit even with multiple TMD. They are also great at clearing out enemy navy, but they are not strong enough to wipe out T3 navy (doesn't feel like shit when on receiving end), and even parts of your t2 could survive - given it'd take 2-3 missiles to kill a destroyer (depending on actual damage decided on and unit vet). If you attack a naval production site with them, and the enemy is semi-defended, they still loose the existing defenses, which allows you to go in to finish them off. But it's not so strong that 1 random salvo will wipe the whole production (since it's presumably not strong enough to kill an HQ in 1 salvo, unless extremely lucky with missile distribution). This means that it's both satisfying from the attacker's perspective (it actually accomplishes something, and unless the enemy is very well prepared, you'll do some damage for sure), opening up avenues to push the balance, but it's also not so devastating that you wipe their whole navy, and the battle is over because of 1 missile.
P.S.: Nuke subs being 'better' at delivering nukes and whatnot is hogwash. On larger maps, they are limited by range, and on smaller ones the intel coverage is usually good enough to find any 'sneaky' sub. Having alternative 'angles' of approach for the nuke is rarely beneficial - occasions where the SMD doesn't cover the parts you would actually want to nuke are rare, and what nuke delivery boils down to in 99.9% of cases is either getting the nuke in fast (which subs are bad for), or sniping the SMD (which subs are as good at as SMLs are). In most games, the only time I don't build SMD as part of getting into T3, is when I'm rushing a SML. So yeah, 'you won't be expecting the nuke' argument is also non-applicable, since, even if one delays his SMD, the sub takes that much longer to make the nuke and position itself, that it's not gonna get there in time. Note that, as it stands, nuke subs on mid-large maps rely on you having won the navy already (assuming you plan to nuke bases). As they are right now, they are only good for thinning out the enemy's navy at great cost and time investment (which is to say, not good at all in total) - and all that assuming you are winning or equal in navy - if you are loosing, they are dead weight.
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@fichom said in Nuke Sub Rework:
P.S.: Nuke subs being 'better' at delivering nukes and whatnot is hogwash. On larger maps, they are limited by range, and on smaller ones the intel coverage is usually good enough to find any 'sneaky' sub. Having alternative 'angles' of approach for the nuke is rarely beneficial - occasions where the SMD doesn't cover the parts you would actually want to nuke are rare, and what nuke delivery boils down to in 99.9% of cases is either getting the nuke in fast (which subs are bad for), or sniping the SMD (which subs are as good at as SMLs are). In most games, the only time I don't build SMD as part of getting into T3, is when I'm rushing a SML. So yeah, 'you won't be expecting the nuke' argument is also non-applicable, since, even if one delays his SMD, the sub takes that much longer to make the nuke and position itself, that it's not gonna get there in time. Note that, as it stands, nuke subs on mid-large maps rely on you having won the navy already (assuming you plan to nuke bases). As they are right now, they are only good for thinning out the enemy's navy at great cost and time investment (which is to say, not good at all in total) - and all that assuming you are winning or equal in navy - if you are loosing, they are dead weight.
I suggested to fix the intel problem by making them more difficult to detect, for example via trigger ability that gives them stealth (or even cloak) but prevents them from moving or attacking or even building a nuke while it is on, making them the threat they are supposed to be without the risk of accidentally discovering one by a random scout patrol and without them being an invisible win button either while maintaining the nuke submarine concept of the unit
maybe if range is a problem on even medium maps, increase their range as well
most importantly, if the nuke on submarines costed less (or should I say more proportional to its damage compared with sml) it could be used to wipe out enemy outlying firebases and mex clusters that don't have smd without it being a net loss in mass for the attacker which is the main reason no one uses them for it (need minimum of 15k or whatever damage in mass just to break even), this would be giving different uses to these 2 different levels of nukes, currently the only thing that has a similar purpose to this (mini nuking smaller base) is a billy nuke, and that gets stopped easily by tmd or even shield generators due to it being a tactical missile and extremely low damage and radius respectively (so just adding to/changing billy nukes to nuke submarines isn't a fix either)
total list of possible buffs (so far) that don't redesign them into something completely different:
- increase submarine nuke range
- increase submarine nuke speed (of nuke missile itself)
- increase submarine nuke damage / reduce submarine nuke cost (currently same cost as sml nuke while having less range and <1/3rd damage), I suggest reducing cost instead of increasing damage for reasons I explained above (tldr: mass effective nukes against smaller bases for 2 tiers of nukes with different uses)
- make nuke submarines more difficult to detect underwater at some downside (ex. immobile/completely "stunned" during stealth)
all at once may make them op but these are all options available to balance them with while keeping them "nuke submarines"
if you say they are useless for any "nuke purposes" in most situations, then that is what has to be fixed, their nuking capabilities/efficiencies, not the unit redesigned into something else that primarily exists for non-nuke missile use, at that point you deleted the original unit and put something else in its place, now that is hogwash
so yes I suggested to make them better at being nuke submarines, what you (and many others) are suggesting is to forget the nuke part of them because it currently doesn't work well (and instead of fixing that you choose to double down on it?) and turn them into some kinds of tactical missile ships that I don't agree this unit is about and like someone else mentioned, neither will be the newcomers that already know it as nuke submarine from non-faf versions or many other players that don't pay attention to balance forums
if such a unit is needed then maybe it should be created as a new one instead or added to different useless existing one (aircraft carriers maybe, at least missile barrage from them would make sense especially since they could have unique mercy-like aircraft they could be the only ones to build, aka homing anti ship missile, to barrage enemy fleet with from distance (or even a medium range missile that lands into water and becomes a torpedo, to deal with certain annoying underwater units like HARMS that otherwise need exploits to deal with, the possibilities are endless), instead of being giant defenseless radars they currently are)
and with nuke submarines being "useless unless you already won navy", imo they are not supposed to be something you build to win navy by attacking navy with them directly like just another battleship, just like you don't build strats to take out enemy asf with, you build them to attack ground, which may very well win you air indirectly or the game itself, you do the same with nuke submarines to take out enemy bases, not their navy, because not every unit needs to be a direct combat unit against its own layer, some exist to push the advantage you have, to outside of the layer
