Best posts made by Cyborg16

Can we get it off ladder please? Nearly everyone I play on it tells me it's a boring map and I strongly agree.

Added feature : preselection of mex when selection engineer and hovering the cursor over a mass spot

I don't like this so much. Is there an option to turn it off? It can require an extra click when doing the "assist mex" thing to build storages.

Another possible option on battleship balance: make them less effective direct fire (unit-vs-unit) weapons, thus only really useful for bombardment. Keep T2 destros (+ UEF T3 destro) as the navy mainstay. This could perhaps be achieved via damage classes (reduced damage, with bonus vs structures)?

That might also help reduce splash vs subs without affecting splash vs harms.

Honestly though, SC navy would need a lot of work (and probably a lot more units) to be properly balanced IMO.

There's nothing wrong with Aurora: they're (almost) a T1 sniper.

But Aeon needs a T1 tank: something with enough HP that it can survive 1-on-1 vs any other T1 tank much of the time in close quarters. Perhaps a new unit with the speed of the Aurora but the range of other tanks, with similar DPS but 20% more cost and 30% more HP.

Given a new tank, one could even try balancing the Aurora more like other snipers: lower DPS but a little more speed. (Currently DPS must approx. match other tanks for balance to work with smaller numbers, but then Aurora get too powerful in large groups due to range, except vs bombers...)

If the unit count really can't be increased, there is another option, though many would consider it heresy: turn the Flare into a T1 sniper/LAB hybrid and the Aurora into standard medium (or less-standard heavy) tank.

The proper solution would be to create an intel entity which drops from the aircraft, every few seconds, and if it lands in water, becomes a short term sonar buoy. The code for that too, is already in the game - it's used in the Aeon Eye of Rhianne, which creates a vision entity. This would be an adaptation of that.

That might actually work okay. Can such a temporary entity be targetted by subs/ships?

And what about stealth? Should there be stealth subs which only show up in vision radius or is that too insidious? Would they be visible to scout planes anyway due to vision + radar?

Perhaps a better alternative:

• all water-based sonar are actually short-range omni + long range sonar
• all subs (even all underwater units?) automatically stealth when not moving
• (maybe) no underwater vision; enemy units are only visible as sonar icons: this could make nuke subs a key part of T3 navy

So Farms is saying air is boring because it has few units? Sure, more faction diversity might be interesting... well, Aeon already has swifties, mercies and restorers.

Back to navy, bias said:

Submarines are entirely boring units, they have no real solid mechanics associated with them

So make them interesting. Add a "stealth" button like the Selen and let them lurk, maybe, then try luring your opponent's ships to your subs.

But it's kind of hard to make "hide and seek" tactics work given the pace of the game, plus the way target locks work through the fog of war.

Status

This opening post has been kept up to date with changes to the proposal.

Status is abandoned, for the following reasons:

• it's a big change to Aeon T1 balance, and there isn't much appetite for that
• "if you give access to a normal tank, you wouldn't make aurora anymore" - @Auricocorico
• an additional unit at the T1 land stage is unwanted complexity (also affecting things like key-bindings)

Summary

Give Aeon a new T1 unit: a heavy tank, which has the same range as other T1 tanks (18), similar DPS-per-mass-cost, the speed of the Aurora (3), while being 20-30% more expensive and having a similar HP bonus over other tanks (so 350-400; some tuning needed to get even trades in tank groups of even cost).

Given the above, rebalance Aurora a little: lower DPS, possibly a little more range, possibly a little more speed.

(Possibly also this impacts Flare balance but this is beyond me.)

Motivation

Yes, Aeon is balanced reasonably well for high-level players, though I believe it's still under-represented in tournaments. A greater problem is that Aeon is very widely hated amongst low-to-medium level players since, at the most import stage (T1 land), it plays differently. As a consequence fewer low-to-mid level players learn Aeon and further these players have less experience playing against Aeon.

Edit: given the comments below, I think this section needs expanding:

1. The Aurora is good, but has some weaknesses. Specifically, defending vs other tanks in small numbers. As Turin points out below, this isn't strictly true — if the player has good micro and adequate attention. Personally I find the requirement of good micro unfair in what is first and foremost a strategy game.
2. The Aurora is too good in certain situations when well microed, particularly when a "meatshield" is available (ACU or Obsidian). It has the same cost and DPS as any other tank yet 44% more range. In my opinion this is far too much DPS considering the range; however, one cannot simply decrease the DPS when the Aurora is the main T1 tank, thus a compromise: keep the Aurora as a "sniper tank" but add a new tank for the actual tank role.
3. "No i think it's all about their weakness to air, and all the situation that comes with it being very easy to kill : one aurora can die to one micro'd lab, it can't raid or counter ennemy raids, you can't shift-g or overrun an ACU with them, and since you have to rely on your ACU to tank the damage, you're very at risk of being overrun." - @Auricocorico

Details

The T1 tank is a very important unit, and has multiple uses:

• defending expanding engineers against early LABs
• raiding in small numbers (as an alternative to LABs or by breaking off part of an army)
• attacking/defending a position early in small numbers
• attacking/defending as part of a larger army, often with support (an ACU, a T1 PD to fall back to, bombers, or a small number of T2 units)

Now, the Aurora has longer range than other T1 tanks for diversity, and several other differences almost directly as a consequence: lower HP to balance larger tank battles, similar cost and DPS to that it is still vaguely comparable to other tanks in groups of 5-10 (with intel but no other support), and lower speed to prevent infinite kiting.

Going back to the above list, the Aurora is not too bad vs LABs (though intel and micro play a larger role than with other tanks), is poor at raiding (low speed and low HP), is terrible vs other tanks in low numbers (e.g. 3 vs 3 Aurora vs Thaam, the Thaam only has to run in and will win easily), and is perhaps too strong in larger armies (especially with ACU support where the armies are often kiting and retreating, though bombers are a big factor).

My suggestion to address this: add a new T1 tank and reduce Aurora DPS.

The new T1 tank should trade similarly to other tanks when in similar quantity (in terms of mass cost), which I believe requires equal range to other tanks. For factional diversity and to complement the Aurora, I suggest that the new tank is heavier (maybe 30% more expensive with buffs to DPS and armour in order to trade similarly), and slower than other tanks (similar to the Aurora) in order to not make it strictly better than other T1 tanks.

This new tank should do well (balanced) when attacking/defending a position in smaller numbers (direct consequence of above balance) and when raiding (though a little worse than other tanks due to speed).

In larger armies the new tank will have a couple of weaknesses compared to other T1 tanks: greater vulnerability to T1 arty (due to slower speed) and to overcharge (due to higher mass concentration). This is where the Aurora comes in, performing roughly the role of a T1 sniper.

As such and to address the current balance vs ACUs, the Aurora should have lower DPS but perhaps also better range. The intention is that Aurora + intel still trades well vs other T1 tanks in larger numbers but that the damage output is lower, allowing more time for reaction by other players.

Implementation

I suggest the following as a starting point, though likely tweaks are needed:

Bear: T1 heavy tank
HP: 450, Cost: 90m+400e+420t, vision: 20, speed 3, turn-rate: 90
Weapon: range 0-18, 40dmg / 1.2sec (33.33dps)

Aurora: T1 sniper tank
Same range: 0-26 (also range of T1 PD)
Buf speed: 3.1 (from 3)
Buf HP: 180 (from 155)
Reduce turn rate? (Currently 310 vs 90 for most tanks.)
Reduce DPS: 30dmg / 1.9sec (15.79dps) (from 40/1.7=23.53)

Flare: keep the same or nerf slightly? (It's currently the strongest LAB which is okay, but not so necessary with my other changes.)

This is all just my theorising. I'm a mid-level player (1200 1v1) so cannot speak for everyone. Considerable tuning will be needed. Players will need to adapt significantly when playing with or against Aeon.

Those comments out of the way, I could try implementing this with a mod (if someone would be so kind as to create a unit model), though I'm also not the best person for that job. I would rather hear some feedback first.

aurora can win in small number vs other tanks if microed do dodge every shot by wiggling

Thanks for your input Turin. In case it wasn't clear, I'm a little more concerned about more average players than yourself (who often struggle to micro effectively and keep up with everything else). Of course it's an open question whether balance should reflect only on the top players (this seems to be Jagged's opinion if I understand correctly) or whether lower-ranked players should be considered (this does have a caveat: under-representation of Aeon at lower ranks may in part be because new players who do well with Aeon advance more quickly than with other factions — but this is pure hypothesis without evidence).

Aurora are quite strong

Well, yes. My point above is that they are too strong in large numbers and too weak individually (though Turin clearly disagrees with this part).

I expanded the motivation section in the first post, and also moved the unit stats there (slight tweak since I realised the range must not exceed T1 PD).

@blackyps said in Aeon T1 addition: heavy tank:

Aside from the fact that this discussion is pointless anyway because you won't convince any relevant people to add more units to the game

I agree by now; large changes could do significant harm to the player-base and another unit for T1 land is a significant complication.

Also, the whole suggestion amounts to "give Aeon a normal-ish T1 tank + a bonus unit to keep it special", which kind of defeats the point of the Aurora being a unique tank in the first place.

because they are weak

Why does this keep coming up? I don't remember ever saying that Aeon are weak (or that the Aurora is in general).

too much effort to play

I feel this may be true to some extent, but perhaps not worth changing, especially in light of the first point.

If one factions playstyle appeals to a rather small set of players, why do we need to change that? I really don't see the issue.

There is a minor issue, and it's more that average players get less exposure playing against Aeon. But it's not a big issue.

To me this seems like trying to get the play rates up for the sake of "this is how things should be"

The motivation is simpler actually: addressing the reason I don't like to play Aeon (while assuming that quite a few others feel similarly).