# In Matchmaker, spawn top players to face each other

Hi all,

Would it be possible in Matchmaker to set spawn locations so that the best players on each team face each other? I often see 3v3 with the top player on team A facing off against a weak player on team B, and vice versa. While the teams are still balanced, it makes the game less fun for the weaker players.

EDIT added March 2: I think the issue is specifically on mapgen.

The matchmaker already tries to do that but some maps are just set up so that those slots face eachother. It really is up to the map authors to set up the slots in a certain way. It’s impossible for the matchmaker to know the specifics of any particular map so the best it can do is treat the slot numbers consistently.

What slots should be opponents of each other according to the matchmaker algorithm? 1 versus 2, 3 versus 4, etc?

Yes the matchmaker assumes all maps are even odd and similar players will be put into adjacent slots.

I figured the OP is talking about rotational symmetry maps where players of equal skill will be in the same relative position but may be directly across from players of different skill like rock and beach in setons

Yeah @Sheikah , that's what I meant, specifically on mapgen maps. Some recent examples of that rotational matching of worst player vs best opposing player:
2v2: https://replay.faforever.com/21972021
3v3: https://replay.faforever.com/21979709
4v4: https://replay.faforever.com/21979376

And just to be clear, I think TMM is amazing, this is just an improvement suggestion!

@treos

Yeah but you need to do this in order to keep the positions fair. You want to have the strongest and weakest player of both teams to be in the same position to their (rotational) mirror. The asymmetry it creates is often beneficial for the gameplay anyways. But moreover, you need this to keep it fair. Imagine the case were on one team the strongest player gets a spot with 8 mexes and on the other team the strongest player gets 25 mexes. That's way worse.

I checked out the 3v3 replay you've posted. There is nothing wrong there in terms of the positions. Sure the weaker player has to fight the stronger one, but I don't think that is necessarily bad there. At least the strongest players start in the same relative positions, which is more important.

@stormlantern It really isn't fair. When the 800 on your team has 20 mex and the 1800 has 6. And your opponents have the opposite

Sorry for my English. I use translator

Rotational symmetry means that both 800 players on the team will have 20 and both 1800 will have 6. That is why it uses adjacent slots.

If it didn't then you could end up with the players in non equivalent slots.

@skrat

No you misunderstand. That imbalance does not happen with how it works currently..

@stormlantern Just being an observer here, I wonder that even though the intention is for that not to happen, is it possible that any/some of the maps weren't created with proper sequential starting location positions so even though the players are assigned the correct rating vs rating slots, they're not matched-up on the map because of miss-matched non-sequential starting location positions?

@mostlostnoob

You mean mapgen maps or regular? But regardless, those should be outliers if they happen at all. I dont think that's what is meant here

@Sheikah and @StormLantern thanks for explaining. If this spawning pattern is limited to those mapgen maps with rotational symmetry, then I can’t argue with the logic you laid out.

In that case I guess I just prefer maps where the symmetry isn’t rotational unless the rating gap between best and worst player is small. I think it can be demotivating for the weakest players if they get stomped early on. (Especially if you get those types of maps twice in a row.) But I can see how perhaps others might like the change in dynamics that rotationally symmetrical mapgen creates.

Perhaps it’s worth setting a limit on how often in a row you get rotational symmetry mapgen maps (across 2v2/3v3/4v4 TMM)? I admittedly don’t know if that’s easy or hard.

@treos

Its not exclusively for mapgen. Almost all matchmaker maps have rotational symmetry afaik. Or atleast not the regular symmetry where opposing slots have the exact same position on the map.

This is because maps with regular symmetry tend to have somewhat stale gameplay. Also maps with regular symmetry tend to look pretty bad and unnatural. See for yourself. Compare ten maps with regular symmetry versus rotational. You will notice that the former look relatively unnatural.

As someone who has spend quite a bit of effort in garnering feedback on maps, I also notice that maps with regular symmetry tend to get a lot of negative feedback, when played through the matchmakers. I suspect it is in large part due to this visual unattractiveness combined with the more stale gameplay element.

If your slot can just do what enemy slot is doing to beat back the enemy, it’s boring. Some slots need to be better and some slots need to be worse. It encourages gameplay asymmetry in dealing with problems and therefore also encourages teamwork. If everyone has the exact same dynamic as their enemy there is little real reason to engage in coordination with others.

Maps like this are more common to be seen at lower levels though, they don’t really exist in top level pools. I’m thinking something like badlands.

@stormlantern xD, I rarely play lately and misunderstood the problem (translation issues)

Sorry for my English. I use translator