Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread
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Has anybody ever gotten Cybran teleport without getting laser? Nobody gets UEF teleport now, it would be tied entirely to billy. Making exceptions tied to laser/billy doesn’t make sense when those upgrades are basically the whole power of teleport.
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So UEF can no longer get teleport and T3 together? Some very popular casts of games used this combo. I mean they were amusing and involved some inventive strategies.
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@ftxcommando said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
Because 90% of games are decided before min 28
Are they? Is Min 28 the earliest telemaser timing? Are any of these statements possible to make in general without accounting for the map? The answer to all of these is the same.
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Can be pedantic about it all you want, there is a big difference between optimally spreading reclaim engies, scaling power, and utilizing mex bp while managing unit fronts at min 7 vs attack moving 2-3 engie facs on the giant reclaim pile at min 25, and putting more engie stations next to your gateway producing boys to scale mass fabs. There is no map where you're making teleport where your generic scaling isn't done unless you have 50 mexes to manage.
What's the inventive strategy of UEF teleport btw? Stealth gen and tml base? Billy + T3 + teleport is insanely powerful, it isn't an option to be allowed. T3 + teleport is a meme gimmick that I have only seen in games that were won 10 minutes before. Billy + teleport carries vastly more utility and makes UEF teleport legitimately viable in late game.
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Billy + T3 + teleport is insanely powerful, it isn't an option to be allowed.
This was my gut reaction as well (shield + t3 + teleport also seems like it could be pretty beastly in some situations), but why not simply tune the cost of teleporting to make it not so?
I agree that special rules or exceptions are bad, but there's already precedent for adjusting teleport cost based on energy/mass cost of the unit (bp values TeleportMass/EngMod--could add in build time if you like). Include the cost of enhancements when calculating teleport cost* and you have many, many wheels to spin, all based on a central existing algorithm.
*Picking this out because it's an important possibility and I don't want to it get lost in the specifics here--mass cost of the telemazor (4000) is double that of the Cybran commander (2000). Just taking that into consideration--it isn't right now, TeleportMassMod is 0 for everything--could vary balance of teleporting with and without other enhancements significantly.
"But that's too complicated for players to learn"--there's a ton of shit (most of it, I'd say) that's too complicated for players to learn, and they approximate instead. Make the cost clear at the time and they'd do the same with teleporting.
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Billy is much safer of a teleport tool than laser due to the TML range, combine it with spamming t2 shields for survivability to teleport out (which you can make while reloading a billy) and it's just not possible. You would need to include a variety of special rules on UEF teleport to make it remotely fair to deal with beyond making it more expensive. It would always be insanely obnoxious of a tool regardless of cost.
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You could make it much slower. Just need to hit the sweet spot that creates a red queen's race in building enough shields to survive vs. teleporting out in time to avoid retribution.
But I'm just throwing stuff out there. I agree it's a sticky question. Needing to choose between engineering suite and billy would address some of it.
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@ftxcommando said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
Billy + T3 + teleport is insanely powerful, it isn't an option to be allowed. T3 + teleport is a meme gimmick that I have only seen in games that were won 10 minutes before.
This sounds like a great reason to make teleport + billy/mlaser more limited.
As GreenSubmarine pointed out, it makes sense given that the upgrades involved are huge energy costs. (HOW does energy get teleported across the map in the first place? Ask Tesla?
Overall I think making it more expensive when used with mlaser or billy is not a ridiculous proposal mechanically, and makes a ton of sense for balance)Obviously, putting them on the same slot, while it might 'make sense', would restrict some fun strategies regarding teleport+billy and teleport+mlaser.
I can honestly see the best solution for balance being making teleport expensive when combined with billy/laser, but cheaper without,.
One option would just be to make teleport cheaper for the factions that can't exploit it with mlaser or billy. Another would be to increase teleport costs if the ACU had a mlaser or a billy.I get that 'special exceptions' feels bad - but if the 'commander draws lots of energy' angle is taken, it's more palateable, and seems far better for balance.
That is, seraphim and aeon use teleport to escape danger, UEF and cybran use teleport to destroy enemies and also to escape danger (if they like), so it costs more because it has so much more utility.
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Sera has double gun, they use their teleport as a suicide on air grids just the same, it just has more than 5 seconds of a margin for error. UEF and Aeon are rn the useless tele factions, telebilly makes UEF viable in terms of sera/cyb tele. Aeon has no late game high alpha upgrade to attach to their teleport and so they’re the ones that would need a cheaper teleport since tele stealth tml bases are just not a big deal.
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Well, to give Aeon a viable option , give the second range gun upgrade full OC damage vs unshielded buildings
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@ftxcommando Fair enough. I've seen more discussion regarding teleport+billy than I have seraphim gun + teleport.
In the lower player-count games I play, teleport is kindof a 'pie in the sky' idea!
I just think it sounds very much worth exploring adjusting teleport costs based on how well the ACU can exploit it (be that mlaser, seraphim guns, or billy!) -
@ftxcommando said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
Billy is much safer of a teleport tool than laser due to the TML range, combine it with spamming t2 shields for survivability to teleport out (which you can make while reloading a billy) and it's just not possible. You would need to include a variety of special rules on UEF teleport to make it remotely fair to deal with beyond making it more expensive. It would always be insanely obnoxious of a tool regardless of cost.
Explain the t2 sheild part of this please
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You build shields for extra hp so you can teleport out while being attacked by air?
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you can teleport uef drones now????
what if acu had slot like stinger to take a sparky/percy with it?
maybe it can shoot while being carried like units in gc claw. -
I think the teleport cost based on range clyf made should at least be tested out as an alternative to hard limiting the tele range.
When it's super expensive to tele long range it will give you more time to scout the ridiculous amout of power your opponent is making giving you time to prepare some kind of counterattack / defense.
Kind of sad that no one from the balance team is interested enough in it to at least have some response to it (even just saying they don't like the idea) -
@nex It might just be that the teleporting ACU instead opts to jump in 2 or 3 hops rather than 1 big leap.
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I never assume they're not silently lurking about.
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@sylph_ said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
It might just be that the teleporting ACU instead opts to jump in 2 or 3 hops rather than 1 big leap.
But that will take longer and you will have to charge your teleport in less safe locations than your main base, so there is a tradeoff between one long range jump vs multiple short range jumps.
It also opens the possibility of short range teleports that are much quicker. For jumping up a plateau for example.@clyf said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
I never assume they're not silently lurking about.
Yeah I also think some of them read it and I know a lot of the balance suggestions are pretty psycho and they don't wanna deal with that, but as people that have to make decisions they should at least have some transparency as to what they are thinking about stuff, especially if it got positive feedback from multiple people.
It just makes contributing unnecessarily harder when you never know if something you could work on right now is even wanted or not. They want less work and there are people ready to do the work, but nobody wants to do work that just gets thrown away in the end.
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@ftxcommando said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
You build shields for extra hp so you can teleport out while being attacked by air?
With t1?
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No, it's a response as to why T3, tele and billy shouldn't be all possible at the same time.
