Smol ACU Adjustment
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I think a reduction to gun ACU range would be a more reasonable nerf, if ACUs need to be nerfed.
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I definitely do think needing 15 shots to kill a pillar vs 7 will make a difference (UEF moment), it also punishes you less for not keeping a clump of units because you aren't as worried about acus doing free passive damage. It makes it more of a question to keep a concentrated dps ball that is at risk of OC vs safer but more likely to get caught out of position units. This is, again, mainly a teamgame approach since I'm not factoring in blobs of units without ACUs or ACUs without blobs of units.
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100 DPS is already nothing for T2 units, you need OC to be able to safely handle more than 2-3 T2 tanks. Halving ACU DPS will just make it comically easy for T1 spam to kill it. If you wanted to make T2 stronger you should nerf OC not base shot damage
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Correct. That's why I said this is just looking at how decent it's going to be for teamgames. The reason t1 stage is fully irrelevant in teamgames is because ACUs stop any spam below 20 tanks even before OC is accounted for and by the time you set up the proper spam to overrun an ACU, t2 is already out and ready. Then t2 spam has a hard time breaking past a gun ACU for the exact same dynamic aside from an insane all in where you either get a snowball that cascades through the map or you lose.
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I vote killing auto oc (or perhaps it's possible to reduce dmg from auto-oc shots vs manual ones?)
As much as agreeing with Thomas annoys me I think he's right this time
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Auto-OC is just a qol thing, getting rid of it wouldn't nerf guncoms much
Frankly auto OC is most useful when paired with snipe mode so you can move forwards while also targeting enemy ACU. Without it you have to stop to shoot OCs
But for defending your commander from T2 spam, manual OC is actually better because it has higher ROF and you can pick better targets
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why are you guys like 1200 if u can manual oc spam while doing proper base management i cant do that
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Nerfing gun will relatively buff T2. What do we do to not go back to "T2 always beats gun" days?
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Since manual OC is already better (CD and targeting) there is no reason to remove auto OC.
Don't make the game more challenging for average players. -
by only having manual OC, you basically have a weapon/unit that only exists at all if you are manually controlling it, which makes no sense, micro should just make it better (manual aim of OC), not be needed for its existence in first place
this is just like groundfiring submarines (battleships' underwater damage being nonexistant unless you are microing them where they suddenly become best counter to them), once again forcing micro to get minimum out of unit when it could do so without it like it currently does, with micro increasing what you get from the unit by making its decision making better with micro instead of turning its weapon on at all with micro
if ACU is op with its potential used to maximum (auto OC), then we shouldn't make its potential more manual labor to use, but balance it at its maximum, or remove OC altogether or make it an upgrade like on SACUs, something that makes sense rather than making it harder to use by the player, because that is like making bombers only drop any individual bomb if you manually tell them to, otherwise not doing anything, or more accurately, bombers dropping stronger (more damage and aoe than normal bomb) if you manually tell them to, otherwise dropping their current weaker one
why are these unit abilities being made available only through micro and otherwise not existing?
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Because micro means you're paying attention to it and not other things. If game is about automation then game is just decided by spreadsheet monkeys and we might as well as play a grand strategy game instead of an RTS.
ACU is important, but that importance should come at an attention cost that causes the rest of your game to suffer in order to maximize utility. Unless you're a God at splitting attention properly.
These sort of things are fun because it involves both players playing mind games and trying to jebait bad attention investments rather than "oh I hit this button after dragging a line of e storages to make my ACU 3x as strong."
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Auto OC is some stupid ability FAF added, so it's much easier to argue for it's removal than things in the game from the start. It has horrible anti-synergy with the new variable energy overcharge system (which I still think is the worst thing ever done to the game).
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well, imo you shouldn't be able to buy a new weapon (OC) with attention, all weapons you have should be usable automatically or shall we start making tanks not shoot unless you micro their guns as well? where is the line between """micro""" and having to do manual labor to use your units to their base effect? micro is about making units "act better", not "act at all" and you can still use OC better manually if you want to spend attention for it like you say, or are you saying auto OC is so good it can replace a human? I for one don't want to have to stare at ACU and click OC every x seconds in a strategy game, grand or not, to have the same unit the other player does
manual OC was an outlier to begin with, in game where every weapon can be and is fired automatically (except once again things like nukes which aren't fired automatically because of obvious reasons), like veterancy, it seemed like some kind of attempt to put rpg/moba elements into the game that was never thought through, if gpg didn't add it from start and decided to do so afterwards you can be sure many players would question it instead of blindly accepting it "because it was there from start"
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Why do you always take things to an insane slippery slope? The line between the two is what makes a game fun jesus christ
Or is it my turn for the nonresponse and I say "hurr durr since auto-oc exists u might as well as have your engies automatically plan out your optimal reclaim path when you click mexes and units should automatically maintain max distance from anything in their radar range"
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Is the objective here to make t2 phase last longer or for it to be more impactful while active? The com dampens the impact t2 can have early on, while quickly upgrading to t3 land can usually be more effective than getting the amount of t2 units required.
If you want the t2 phase to be extended, then t3 is the problem here.
if you want t2 to be more effective, overcharging is the problem.
The gun damage does make a difference but only up to a point. Overcharge has more of an impact on later t2 pushes. -
the reason I am using that comparison is because "tanks not shooting unless you tell them to" literally is the same as "ACU not OCing (aka shooting) unless you tell it to", it is not really incomparable slippery slope like you think it is, even if it did appear as one, unit not using weapon unless manually told to is all there is to it
if you want to use "but it uses energy to fire so its not the same as other weapons", static arty uses e to fire as well, and it fires automatically, why should ACU be any different except to give it some arbitrary limitation, when microing it should, like I said, make it use OC better instead of at all, like all other units do (except battleships shooting submarines ofc)
also my predicted outcome for removing auto OC: everyone good at the game (capable of microing acu OC while playing the rest of game) will still stop t2 land with manual OC with change being a minor inconvenience (or fun for some I guess), everyone bad at the game (can't micro acu OC without losing macro) will get overwhelmed by t2 land and lose, or stop it, but lose to enemy macro because they were busy OCing instead of playing the game
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@thomashiatt said in Smol ACU Adjustment:
Auto OC is some stupid ability FAF added, so it's much easier to argue for it's removal than things in the game from the start. It has horrible anti-synergy with the new variable energy overcharge system (which I still think is the worst thing ever done to the game).
Give me the ability to OC while still following the last move order and I won't complain about removing auto-OC. As is, it is useful for retreats.
IMO frequent lack of T2 usage comes down to dynamics that have very little to do with the T2 units themselves:
- Early game, grabbing mexes and reclaim is a must. Raiding is often also important. Hence T1 cannot be skipped.
- Mid-game, eco is important. T2 pushes take time to build and reach the enemy, time that allows preparation of defence (gun ACU, T2 PD, maybe even T3 land).
T2 land is not useless, but mex upgrades and map size are the real reasons T2 land has little use.
So, nerf mass-storage adjacency bonus for more T2 tanks?
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Generally I think a turtle style feels way more comfortable for new players, and this is reinforced by a bias towards safer maps like gap or astro when it comes to the games they play.
For them to become ladder players, if they ever do, they have to go through a phase where they unlearn some bad turtle habits, and try out and succeed at being aggressive. They tend to do this by playing more open maps in custom lobbies, the lower the skill and confidence, the more players.
There's already a big cost in attention needed to use the ACU offensively, as compared to just making some obscene firebase with a t2 com, a very, very common noob trap. And attention, specifically, is a beginner's most scarce resource. They often forget radar, tmd, scouting in general, they may idle their first high tech engies for minutes if they get distracted, or attack then look away from the fight, because doing these things right is not yet second nature to them. They spend more time doing any one thing and often get tunnel-vision on some random task because they have to think about it and it's not just busywork as it is to a veteran. This makes multi-taksing harder.
I'm worried about the nerfs you suggested because they make the climb from astro noob to ladder player steeper. I'm sure, FTX, you're very familiar with all the things I described, with all your mentoring experience on discord, and with that in mind, maybe I shouldn't be worried, but I'm still hoping you can think of another way of solving the problem.
I think the recent speed boost to t2 is a welcome change, and in general, I think I'd prefer some solution (which i don't claim to have) that emphasizes decision-making. The same way an air player rushing t3 air might conclude he has a window of opportunity and a need to do damage with a very early strat if he sees his counterpart making t2 bombers, and the same way a less skilled air player like myself decides to pay a mass tax and always shield their t2 pgens, even as i know some better players skip this sometimes, by scouting better and being able to determine if they're far enough behind that a shield is needed.
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@phong said in Smol ACU Adjustment:
Generally I think a turtle style feels way more comfortable for new players, and this is reinforced by a bias towards safer maps like gap or astro when it comes to the games they play.
For them to become ladder players, if they ever do, they have to go through a phase where they unlearn some bad turtle habits, and try out and succeed at being aggressive. They tend to do this by playing more open maps in custom lobbies, the lower the skill and confidence, the more players.
There's already a big cost in attention needed to use the ACU offensively, as compared to just making some obscene firebase with a t2 com, a very, very common noob trap. And attention, specifically, is a beginner's most scarce resource. They often forget radar, tmd, scouting in general, they may idle their first high tech engies for minutes if they get distracted, or attack then look away from the fight, because doing these things right is not yet second nature to them. They spend more time doing any one thing and often get tunnel-vision on some random task because they have to think about it and it's not just busywork as it is to a veteran. This makes multi-taksing harder.
I'm worried about the nerfs you suggested because they make the climb from astro noob to ladder player steeper. I'm sure, FTX, you're very familiar with all the things I described, with all your mentoring experience on discord, and with that in mind, maybe I shouldn't be worried, but I'm still hoping you can think of another way of solving the problem.
I think the recent speed boost to t2 is a welcome change, and in general, I think I'd prefer some solution (which i don't claim to have) that emphasizes decision-making. The same way an air player rushing t3 air might conclude he has a window of opportunity and a need to do damage with a very early strat if he sees his counterpart making t2 bombers, and the same way a less skilled air player like myself decides to pay a mass tax and always shield their t2 pgens, even as i know some better players skip this sometimes, by scouting better and being able to determine if they're far enough behind that a shield is needed.
My problem is the dynamic you’re talking about with regards to OC doesn’t really exist. I don’t even have an OC hotkey bound anymore because I just abuse auto-OC and I don’t find it as bad as thomas makes it seem. This is amplified by the fact auto-OC actually gives you advantages that manual OC doesn’t in terms of continuous movement.
The fact I can get away with playing so utterly lazy to abuse an insanely OP (not that I want it nerfed, I find it fun) mechanic frustrates me. I shouldn’t be allowed to drag some arbitrary e storage value for the tech stage I’m at, hit a button, and afk my ACU at front with small glances at mini maps while I zoom around upgrading mexes or engies reclaiming.
All it takes to counter t1 in teamgames is paying for 1 e storage, really. Maybe a t1 PD behind if you’re really scared of a guy going all in on you. For t2, just add an 800 mass gun upgrade. For t2 to do anything noteworthy, you need 10k+ mass in it to breach an ACU and any emergency meatshield measures that took 60 seconds to create.
With regards to new players, teamgame ones suffer from the exact opposite problem of the ones trying out ladder. They build too much useless stuff, precisely because of this dynamic I’m talking about. They make 4k mass in tanks, it dies, they donate mass, game is over unless enemy does it with 10k mass 6 minutes later. I would like it to be more intuitive for units to actually be useful, and that requires a general ACU nerf, for teamgames.
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I agree that noobs in teamgames still demonstrate many bad habits unsuited for ladder. that's why i mentioned number of players being inversely correlated with player skill and confidence. once you get into 10x10 2v2s or 15x15 3v3s you're much closer to a ladder experience than on any 6v6. But the 6v6 open map is one of the many baby steps that seems to describe a player's trajectory to 1v1 after playing a bunch of astro. Maybe they're only just starting to experiment with units and haven't gotten the hang of using them yet, and the insane commander density on such maps is indeed a hindrance to learning how to use t1 spam. But that's why I mentioned t2 land speed. You can't afk your com at the front if the army can just go around you easier. I mean you can, if 5m to the left of you there's yet another com, but then I'm wondering why are you playing such maps then concluding it's boring? go play 2v2 on a 20x20km.
I never said the problem you described didn't exist, I was just hoping there was a way of solving it that taxes economy, for example, as an alternative to attention. Maybe auto-OC frequency could also scale with the number of mass storages, for instance? That way pros that can afford using manual OC get to spend less mass, but ADHD types get the option of paying more mass for the same benefit.
