UEF T2 Navy & Some Other Changes
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@ftxcommando said in UEF T2 Navy & Some Other Changes:
@cheeseberry said in UEF T2 Navy & Some Other Changes:
That being said, giving the uef destro a "25% boost" may not be enough to make it viable against opponents that micro well, but may straight up make it op at the lower ranks at the same time, so it will need some fine tuning for sure
If it's agreed that UEF needs to leverage a Cooper/Bulwark mix to push Valiants into viability
If we buff the valiant enough, at some point the support units wont be needed anymore. But yeah, your examples make it clear that even a 8k hp, 2k mass cost valiant probably isn't there yet.
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@SiwaonaDaphnewen
If you buff the torpedoes or torpedo defense of the Valiant to match other destroyers...
There will no longer be a need for The Cooper making that unit useless.If you buff the Valiant's torpedo damage, The Cooper's torpedo damage would have to be reduced.
If you buff the Valiant's torpedo defense, The Cooper's torpedo defense would have to be reduced.Either way, they make The Cooper, and its niche, far worse than it currently is...
and it doesn't need a nerf just because the Valiant badly needs a buff.
This unit has great torpedo offense and defense capability as it's literally the only vessel in the UEF navy to have these. It's the backbone of anti-torp and torp offense in the entire UEF navy arsenal.
(Sure, other vessels have some torps but they all suck regardless... may as well be non-existent.)If it gets altered in the wrong way, too much, it will cause a heavy imbalance.
~ Stryker
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Calling coopers op 5head
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I think the HP boost to the Valiant is the best move. UEF get a cruiser that fires tac missiles, they have the ability to reach out.
The cooper is strange, because what is its role? A sub hunter? just a torpedo boat? On paper, it looks really nice, great torpedo defence, fair torpedo damage, lower cost and higher health. That surface vulnerability really kills viability.
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With the upcoming proposed balance change instead of upping the hps further on the UEF destro by ~10% on what already feels like a fairly tank unit - especially with a shieldboat - why not drop their mass cost by ~10% to help afford the kind of mixed navy composition which can work for them at T2, instead of the ever-tempting BC rush
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Buff the torp stats of the uef destroyer so it can survive by itself like the other factions, then repurpose the cooper so uef navy can be with or without it. Rename it support boat, give it really good sonar and jamming, weak torps, cheap cost so when someone spamms subs or stealth at you you don't need the coopers to fight them but if you have them you are much better off. If a frigate worth of aa would be nice.
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@veteranashe said in UEF T2 Navy & Some Other Changes:
Buff the torp stats of the uef destroyer so it can survive by itself like the other factions, then repurpose the cooper so uef navy can be with or without it. Rename it support boat, give it really good sonar and jamming, weak torps, cheap cost so when someone spamms subs or stealth at you you don't need the coopers to fight them but if you have them you are much better off. If a frigate worth of aa would be nice.
Jamming on the Cooper would be a nice addition to the unit, but redundant as frigates are cheaper, and would do the same.
Adding sonar wouldn't be needed as that's what Sonar is for, but again, decent addition.
And AA - Cruisers and frigates do that, too.Decent idea overall, but I don't think that would solve the Valiant issue without making the Cooper here useless, doing so.
~ Stryker
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@veteranashe said in UEF T2 Navy & Some Other Changes:
Buff the torp stats of the uef destroyer so it can survive by itself like the other factions, then repurpose the cooper so uef navy can be with or without it. Rename it support boat, give it really good sonar and jamming, weak torps, cheap cost so when someone spamms subs or stealth at you you don't need the coopers to fight them but if you have them you are much better off. If a frigate worth of aa would be nice.
So the same argument for why the Aurora should be identical to other T1 tanks. Somehow I don't think less faction diversity is going to be the winning answer.
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Seems a bit different with navy than aurora, and the navies already have diversity with subs and other units. Just tossing ideas out
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Seriously, though...
Most of its problems leash from its range.
So, why not just increase the range for the Valiant by 10 or so?Paired with the HP buff, that seems like it would help quite a bit.
Still shorter range but tankier than other destroyers.Oh, and increasing the range of the Cooper a tad to work in tandem, too.
~ Stryker
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It still loses and dies to cyb and aeon while hardcountering sera.
The idea of just making valiant a variant of exodus is incredibly uncreative and is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Give factions a way to play around each other dynamically, not just make each stage a “spam 1 unit all the time” situation.
Seraphim have a short range destro -> their faction focuses on killing priority targets and then moving out of the point of contact, constant micro of the specialized destro where you minimize disadvantage and maximize advantage
UEF has the short range destro -> give it a reason to exist by forcing other factions into going into it. It can’t submerge to avoid damage like Sera (nor have more speed as under this proposed rework) so you adjust Cooper to be that reason. Rather than minimizing disadvantage through micro UEF works on unit mix adjustments.
Aeon is the brute force destro spammer with highly specialized ways to impact navy thru other theaters (great cruiser for aa, great t2 fighter, great hover, great shields)
Cybran is the brute force frigate that forces you to engage via Salem and the Salem also exists to provide the antitorps to protect your OP frigate. Basically an alternate of the UEF where the salem is the cooper and the frigate is the destro.
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I think there would have to be a t1 sub/frigate change to accomplish not spamming 1 unit all the time.
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@veteranashe said in UEF T2 Navy & Some Other Changes:
I think there would have to be a t1 sub/frigate change to accomplish not spamming 1 unit all the time.
Aeon doesn’t want to frigate spam. UEF frig spams because their destro is genuinely so dogshit it makes spamming the 3rd best frig look like a good idea. And sera enjoys frig spamming against worse factions but also has a solid destro for dealing with pure frig spam.
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What about increasing the damage of the Valiant to enforce its brawler capability,
instead of the mass cost reduction?Because even a mass cost reduction won't change much if the unit itself sucks...
I mean, just look at the Spearhead. No one uses it, either.But, getting back to the point - an increase in damage would help make up for the damage lost at range.
~ Stryker
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The unit doesn’t suck if it gets in range. That’s why you don’t adjust the damage. The problem is there is a grand total of 0 reasons to get close to UEF navy until a battlecruiser exists.
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Then why not grant it more HP?
It already acts like cannon fodder, may as well roll with it since nothing else seems to be changable.
Unless you reduce the mass cost by a significant amount (More than 10%), I don't think that'll solve anything for it.
~ Stryker
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Because then the hard value you’re dealing with is the distance of kiting which in terms of navy tends to be the distance back to enemy navy factory. If you make the HP so stupid that on a map like sentons you can force destros back to their factories it’s insanely oppressive. If you don’t, then the adjustment hasn’t changed the reality of anything because they still die doing near zero real damage.
This doesnt even account for the fact the kiting distance changes per map so some maps they will be total trash and others they are insane.
The mass cost reduction is about making the UEF mix contend with a brute force mix of Aeon or Cybran or Sera. So long as nothing comes to harm the Coopers, the UEF should be expected to win. But the factions should have viable counters to coopers in the form of torp bombers or catching UEF in a poor position or even just trying to snipe with their destros (80 v 80 range and phim can submerge with more speed).
I see the 10% reduction making it totally possible for UEF to beat their mass equivalent force, I posted the forces above. If you really wanted to go hard you could make it a 15% reduction but at that point UEF is likely to win without even needing to worry about micro.
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Alright, I didn't see it like that.
Fair enough.
~ Stryker
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Honestly I was kinda wrong, the oppressiveness would happen sooner. Cybran is supposed to win by salems jebaiting you into frigs or barracudas. If UEF destros trade efficiently against defensive frig setup, then they are insanely overpowered and require Cybran options to devolve into barracuda spam which should never be encouraged. Salems suck when retreating so as soon as the frontline needs to retreat Cybran is in a bad spot.
For UEF navy to be coherent it needs to operate in the sliver (against Cybran) where they can trade decently against Cybran frigs attacking into it but will lose if it attacks into Cybran frigs. This is ideally still hit by making them cheaper so that you get a mass concentration out sooner. Later Coopers vs Salems decide who gets the offensive advantage.
Exodus just kites back to base, simple as.
Sera frig is a subset of the Cyb frig problem. If UEF destro has the hp to win against Cyb frig all the time it’s oppressive against them too. Sera destro also has a way harder time getting fair value against the destro since it takes way longer for the torps to kill the UEF destro.
Should also say that a mass cost reduction results in it being easier for UEF destro to vet which is another advantage for handling nobrain frig spam.
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@ftxcommando Currently, how does UEF handle other's navy ? What's UEF's gameplan, like on Seraphim Glaciers ? Does it just not have anything else than spam frigate and tech to T3 if Valiants/Cooper/Bulwarks are so bad in T2 ?
