UEF T2 Navy & Some Other Changes
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Than why can't UEF destroyer have proper torpedoes than? The problem with UEF t2 navy is not the Cooper, but the Valiant.
Give Valiant (let's say) 120-150 DPS for torpedoes, but remove torpedo defence from it entirely. One on one UEF destroyer would match Sera destroyer underwater. Meanwhile UEF destroyer wouldn't break through torp defence of 2 t2 subs meaning you'd have to rely on adding Coopers into mix not only for shooting more torps to break torp defence, but also for defending from torps.
I wanted to use this concept for Nomad t2 navy, but sadly won't happen.
Honestly torp-torp defence balance never took a good look by balance team for years. There were cases with some units shooting torp defence in opposite direction for years and nobody noticed that. Torps, depth charges, torp defence need to be rebalanced from scratch.
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Because now you ruined phim destro and UEF still needs to make an inefficient destro that loses to barracudas or exodus while still being forced to make coopers and bulwarks to deal with either.
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Double Valiant's DPS so that frig spam doesn't work and they have to be engaged at range?
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@ftxcommando said in UEF T2 Navy & Some Other Changes:
@cheeseberry said in UEF T2 Navy & Some Other Changes:
That being said, giving the uef destro a "25% boost" may not be enough to make it viable against opponents that micro well, but may straight up make it op at the lower ranks at the same time, so it will need some fine tuning for sure
If it's agreed that UEF needs to leverage a Cooper/Bulwark mix to push Valiants into viability
If we buff the valiant enough, at some point the support units wont be needed anymore. But yeah, your examples make it clear that even a 8k hp, 2k mass cost valiant probably isn't there yet.
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@SiwaonaDaphnewen
If you buff the torpedoes or torpedo defense of the Valiant to match other destroyers...
There will no longer be a need for The Cooper making that unit useless.If you buff the Valiant's torpedo damage, The Cooper's torpedo damage would have to be reduced.
If you buff the Valiant's torpedo defense, The Cooper's torpedo defense would have to be reduced.Either way, they make The Cooper, and its niche, far worse than it currently is...
and it doesn't need a nerf just because the Valiant badly needs a buff.
This unit has great torpedo offense and defense capability as it's literally the only vessel in the UEF navy to have these. It's the backbone of anti-torp and torp offense in the entire UEF navy arsenal.
(Sure, other vessels have some torps but they all suck regardless... may as well be non-existent.)If it gets altered in the wrong way, too much, it will cause a heavy imbalance.
~ Stryker
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Calling coopers op 5head
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I think the HP boost to the Valiant is the best move. UEF get a cruiser that fires tac missiles, they have the ability to reach out.
The cooper is strange, because what is its role? A sub hunter? just a torpedo boat? On paper, it looks really nice, great torpedo defence, fair torpedo damage, lower cost and higher health. That surface vulnerability really kills viability.
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With the upcoming proposed balance change instead of upping the hps further on the UEF destro by ~10% on what already feels like a fairly tank unit - especially with a shieldboat - why not drop their mass cost by ~10% to help afford the kind of mixed navy composition which can work for them at T2, instead of the ever-tempting BC rush
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Buff the torp stats of the uef destroyer so it can survive by itself like the other factions, then repurpose the cooper so uef navy can be with or without it. Rename it support boat, give it really good sonar and jamming, weak torps, cheap cost so when someone spamms subs or stealth at you you don't need the coopers to fight them but if you have them you are much better off. If a frigate worth of aa would be nice.
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@veteranashe said in UEF T2 Navy & Some Other Changes:
Buff the torp stats of the uef destroyer so it can survive by itself like the other factions, then repurpose the cooper so uef navy can be with or without it. Rename it support boat, give it really good sonar and jamming, weak torps, cheap cost so when someone spamms subs or stealth at you you don't need the coopers to fight them but if you have them you are much better off. If a frigate worth of aa would be nice.
Jamming on the Cooper would be a nice addition to the unit, but redundant as frigates are cheaper, and would do the same.
Adding sonar wouldn't be needed as that's what Sonar is for, but again, decent addition.
And AA - Cruisers and frigates do that, too.Decent idea overall, but I don't think that would solve the Valiant issue without making the Cooper here useless, doing so.
~ Stryker
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@veteranashe said in UEF T2 Navy & Some Other Changes:
Buff the torp stats of the uef destroyer so it can survive by itself like the other factions, then repurpose the cooper so uef navy can be with or without it. Rename it support boat, give it really good sonar and jamming, weak torps, cheap cost so when someone spamms subs or stealth at you you don't need the coopers to fight them but if you have them you are much better off. If a frigate worth of aa would be nice.
So the same argument for why the Aurora should be identical to other T1 tanks. Somehow I don't think less faction diversity is going to be the winning answer.
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Seems a bit different with navy than aurora, and the navies already have diversity with subs and other units. Just tossing ideas out
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Seriously, though...
Most of its problems leash from its range.
So, why not just increase the range for the Valiant by 10 or so?Paired with the HP buff, that seems like it would help quite a bit.
Still shorter range but tankier than other destroyers.Oh, and increasing the range of the Cooper a tad to work in tandem, too.
~ Stryker
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It still loses and dies to cyb and aeon while hardcountering sera.
The idea of just making valiant a variant of exodus is incredibly uncreative and is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Give factions a way to play around each other dynamically, not just make each stage a “spam 1 unit all the time” situation.
Seraphim have a short range destro -> their faction focuses on killing priority targets and then moving out of the point of contact, constant micro of the specialized destro where you minimize disadvantage and maximize advantage
UEF has the short range destro -> give it a reason to exist by forcing other factions into going into it. It can’t submerge to avoid damage like Sera (nor have more speed as under this proposed rework) so you adjust Cooper to be that reason. Rather than minimizing disadvantage through micro UEF works on unit mix adjustments.
Aeon is the brute force destro spammer with highly specialized ways to impact navy thru other theaters (great cruiser for aa, great t2 fighter, great hover, great shields)
Cybran is the brute force frigate that forces you to engage via Salem and the Salem also exists to provide the antitorps to protect your OP frigate. Basically an alternate of the UEF where the salem is the cooper and the frigate is the destro.
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I think there would have to be a t1 sub/frigate change to accomplish not spamming 1 unit all the time.
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@veteranashe said in UEF T2 Navy & Some Other Changes:
I think there would have to be a t1 sub/frigate change to accomplish not spamming 1 unit all the time.
Aeon doesn’t want to frigate spam. UEF frig spams because their destro is genuinely so dogshit it makes spamming the 3rd best frig look like a good idea. And sera enjoys frig spamming against worse factions but also has a solid destro for dealing with pure frig spam.
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What about increasing the damage of the Valiant to enforce its brawler capability,
instead of the mass cost reduction?Because even a mass cost reduction won't change much if the unit itself sucks...
I mean, just look at the Spearhead. No one uses it, either.But, getting back to the point - an increase in damage would help make up for the damage lost at range.
~ Stryker
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The unit doesn’t suck if it gets in range. That’s why you don’t adjust the damage. The problem is there is a grand total of 0 reasons to get close to UEF navy until a battlecruiser exists.
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Then why not grant it more HP?
It already acts like cannon fodder, may as well roll with it since nothing else seems to be changable.
Unless you reduce the mass cost by a significant amount (More than 10%), I don't think that'll solve anything for it.
~ Stryker
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Because then the hard value you’re dealing with is the distance of kiting which in terms of navy tends to be the distance back to enemy navy factory. If you make the HP so stupid that on a map like sentons you can force destros back to their factories it’s insanely oppressive. If you don’t, then the adjustment hasn’t changed the reality of anything because they still die doing near zero real damage.
This doesnt even account for the fact the kiting distance changes per map so some maps they will be total trash and others they are insane.
The mass cost reduction is about making the UEF mix contend with a brute force mix of Aeon or Cybran or Sera. So long as nothing comes to harm the Coopers, the UEF should be expected to win. But the factions should have viable counters to coopers in the form of torp bombers or catching UEF in a poor position or even just trying to snipe with their destros (80 v 80 range and phim can submerge with more speed).
I see the 10% reduction making it totally possible for UEF to beat their mass equivalent force, I posted the forces above. If you really wanted to go hard you could make it a 15% reduction but at that point UEF is likely to win without even needing to worry about micro.
