Make Jesters Cost Less Mass

Problem
Jesters have less than half of the dps/mass of t1 cybran bombers. I barely see jesters used compared to most other units, and when I do seem them used, they usually don't seem worth-it compared to their mass-equivalent alternatives.

Math
Jester: 170 mass, 50 dps -> ~0.29 dps/mass

T1 cybran bomber: 90 mass, 60 dps -> ~0.67 dps/mass = ~231% jester's dps/mass

T1 cybran ghetto with 6 cybran labs: 330 mass, 126 dps -> 0.38 dps/mass = ~131% jester's dps/mass

T1 aeon ghetto with 6 aeon labs: 372 mass, 162 dps -> ~0.44 dps/mass = ~152% jester's dps/mass

T1 uef ghetto with 6 uef labs: 300 mass, 140 dps -> ~0.47 dps/mass = ~162% jester's dps/mass

As you can see, a jester's dps is quite mass inefficient compared to its t1 alternatives.

Solution
Make jesters cost less mass (ie: smth in the 120 to 140 mass range, rather than 170). Even if jesters' mass cost is reduced to 140, it would still cost more mass per dps than all of the above T1 alternatives.

Jester with 140 mass cost: 140 mass, 50 dps -> ~0.36 dps/mass

Jester with 130 mass cost: 130 mass, 50 dps -> ~0.38 dps/mass

Jester with 120 mass cost: 120 mass, 50 dps -> ~0.42 dps/mass

I think such an improvement to jesters' mass/dps efficiency would make them a more viable choice without making them too OP. However, it may be worth increasing the build time cost in combination with decreasing the mass cost, to not make an early jester rush too strong.

Engineers and ACUs basically cant dodge jesters. Jesters are already more of an option for ACU snipes than t1 bombers.

Cybran bombers don't really have full dps because unless you are doing very careful micro, they're going to make wide passes and drop less often than their maximum rate.

Jesters are better able to pick off specific targets. Bombers are good at splashing groups of units but if you want to target down one weak tank, jesters are able to do that.

So I don't think jesters should be boosted much, if at all.

I don't think this can be decided with stats on paper. I don't see them used much though so it could be worth while to get looked into.

@penguin_ t2 gunships have similar dps to jesters (uef ~0.27 DPS/mass, sera 0.26 DPS/mass) and t2 GS have less HP/mass than jesters (jesters: 2.05 HP/Mass, sera T2: 3.6 HP/Mass). So then i ask you this, why should the jester be buffed to be have better DPS/mass and a slightly worse HP/mass compared to their higher tech counter part? That makes no sense at all. Also using a ghetto as a comparison is deceptive as its HP/Mass is lower than that of a jester (UEF T1 Ghetto: 1.66 HP/Mass). So if u want to exclude the HP/Mass for ghettos the same should then apply to t2 gs, thus jesters having any greater dps/mass would be a huge imbalance.

@spikeynoob aren't T1 units often more dps/mass than T2 Units?
frigs out dps destroyers (0.257 vs 0.147 incl. torps) and have more health/mass (7.6 vs 2.69).
Tanks(Mantis for cybran) also have more dps/mass (0.476 vs 0.345) on T1 than on T2(best dps/mass on heavy tank) and only have less health/mass than heavy tanks (4.821 vs 6.551), but these are significantly slower.
So in raw damage stats T1 outshines T2, but T2 brings more utility (range and stuff).
The Jesters dps/mass is still slightly better than its T2 counterpart (0.294 vs 0.222) which is 132% more for the Jester, 138% for the Mantis and 175% for the frig.
on health/mass the jester stands at 2.06 vs 3.08 which is less than the T2 gunship.
So the jester is stat wise worse than its T2 version compared to other (cybran) units.

If you've actually used T1 bombers before you will know it basically takes all of your APM to have a single T1 bomber fire every 5 seconds on a moving target. I don't think I have ever seen anyone hoverbomb with multiple T1 bombers so they fire once every 5 seconds, which likely means that that is practically impossible.

Asking for a DPS increase for the jester based on the hypothetical maximum DPS of a T1 bomber means you're either intentionally cherrypicking fallacious stats or you've just completely forgotten how bombers fundamentally work.

I'm not asking for a DPS increase. I'm suggesting decreasing the mass cost... and the point is based on jesters being too mass inefficient and not being viable enough, as evidenced by their low use rate and inefficient DPS/mass stats; it's not dependent on T1 bombers' hypothetical maximum DPS. You can see some other comparisons in my OP as well as in Nex's post above.

However, just to note, the cybran T1 bomber has ~231% the hypothetical DPS/mass (~0.29 vs ~0.67), more health/mass, ~2000% the alpha damage (300 vs 15), and does AOE (3 damage radius vs 0). Even if a T1 bomber's practical firing rate is significantly lower than its hypothetical one, a T1 bomber still outshines a jester the vast majority of the time. Just look at the frequency with which pros use jesters compared to the frequency with which they use cybran T1 bombers.

@penguin_ did u read my post? Any noticeable buff would render then equal if not better than t2 gunships, which is unacceptable. And as arch said bombers require far more apm to get the damage output which is maybe why it is used more by better players since they have the skill/time to manage micro.

Jester is supposed to be a defensive unit to respond to enemy raids not a universally better bomber that also can then be used for cheese snipes, which is the problem with what it was before. Better off giving it a speed buff to better serve that function.

Yes, @SpikeyNoob, I read your post; I didn't address it since I was satisfied with Nex's response to it, which basically explained that T1 units often have more DPS/mass than their higher tech counterparts and gave example maths to support that point. Just compare the DPS/mass of a strat vs a T1 bomber...

Compared to a jester, a T2 cybran gunship has ~150% the health/mass, 110% max range, 120% max speed, and does AOE (3 damage radius vs 0).

FAF often balances things with their micro potential in mind btw.... cough auroras cough

So, I do think it would be quite reasonable to buff a jester's DPS/mass.

In addition to observing that pros don't use jesters much compared to T1 bombers, I have observed that when lower-skilled players invest in making jesters, they are generally more likely to lose than if they invest the equivalent amount of mass in T1 bombers (or something else) instead.

PS: I am not opposed to alternative methods of buffing the jester (ie: giving it a speed buff). I just would like it to be more viable/worthwhile than it is now.

Just look at the frequency with which pros use jesters compared to the frequency with which they use cybran T1 bombers

It would not be desirable for cybran t1 gunships to be used more than cybran t1 bombers - it is a faction specific unit so it should be more niche.

@ftxcommando It totally does not need a buff, it serves it function as u described just fine. I would be a little more open to nerfing dps and buffing speed. Though it would prob better server balance to just nerf the dps slightly and leave everything else the way it is.

@penguin_ said in Make Jesters Cost Less Mass:

FAF often balances things with their micro potential in mind btw.... cough auroras cough

So, I do think it would be quite reasonable to buff a jester's DPS/mass.

What is ur point? Bombers micro requirements lowers their overall effectiveness. This means that the jesters lower dps means much less since bombers cannot use much of their potential. Seems like the above quote supports my POV rather than urs

https://replay.faforever.com/17326810
Yudi does first jester vs tagada and crushes. This would never have worked with a bomber since tagada gets an AA out. The jester is able to kill the aa where a bomber would just die. It is able to kill every engi and delay more being made via killing the aa,. Hows that for top level players using it.

It would not be desirable for cybran t1 gunships to be used more than cybran t1 bombers - it is a faction specific unit so it should be more niche.

I was not suggesting cybran t1 gunships be buffed to the point that they would be used more than cybran t1 bombers. I would be content with jesters being buffed to a level in which they get used even like 20% as much as cybran t1 bombers do. For perspective, I think I currently see something very roughly in the ballpark of like a 20 or 30 to 1 cybran t1 bomber to cybran t1 gunship ratio on average by ~1.4k+ players.

@SpikeyNoob I meant that FAF often balances things with their micro'ed capabilities in mind. Like, if you just charge auroras in against their mass equivalent in strikers, they will generally lose by a large margin, as they are balanced with their potential to be micro'ed (ie: for kiting) in mind. If that micro potential was not factored in, they would presumably have more health...

I'm not saying that jesters are unusable at the pro level, and I'm not saying that they can't be abused. Just imagine what someone with perfect aurora micro could do. I'm saying that I normally see pros using cybran t1 bombers much more than I see them using jesters, by a very large margin. Also note that my OP did state that it may be worth increasing the build time cost in combination with decreasing the mass cost, to not make an early jester rush too strong.

@penguin_ said in Make Jesters Cost Less Mass:

@SpikeyNoob I meant that FAF often balances things with their micro'ed capabilities in mind. Like, if you just charge auroras in against their mass equivalent in strikers, they will generally lose by a large margin, as they are balanced with their potential to be micro'ed (ie: for kiting) in mind. If that micro potential was not factored in, they would presumably have more health...

U are making no sense, u are explaining this concept like everyone reading this does not already understand it. In order to make an argument u must explain correlation between the concept of micro impacting balance and the idea of buffing jesters.

FAF often balances things with their micro potential in mind btw.... cough auroras cough

There u are again mentioning the issue of micro potential (which as i said we understand) without any connection to the jesters. Maybe u have the idea in ur head and simply are not expressing it, if not u are just bringing up concepts that have no connection to your argument.

@SpikeyNoob
I was saying that stuff in response to what you said... You keep being confused, so I keep trying to explain it more simply... it is not a hard concept... Things get balanced in comparison to other things. So, for example, how a t1 bomber performs per cost is relevant to balancing how a jester performs per cost. You argued about how good/bad t1 bombers are compared to jesters, basically saying that t1 bombers aren't great because they do less than their hypothetical damage if you don't micro them. I explained that even if t1 bombers do significantly less than their hypothetical firing rate, they are still quite good. I also explained that the capabilities of units, such as t1 bombers or auroras, often get factored in with FAF's balancing. So, when balancing, for example, a jester compared to a t1 bomber, we should theoretically factor in micro potential like we would when balancing, for example, a striker vs an aurora. Things like T1 bombers and auroras can relatively often achieve a very cost-efficient amount of damage with good micro. Even if t1 bombers don't normally get micro'ed to their full potential, they do often get used to a decent portion of that potential, especially early on in pro games. Thereby, they theoretically should be/are balanced with some expected level of micro'ing in mind on average, especially early on in pro games. With that logic, t1 bombers are quite good, as are t1 tanks, but jesters are notably worse per cost, by comparison, on average.

@penguin_ So lets not compare t1 bombers to jesters as it is not fair to compare the two, fair enough, then why do we care how often people use jesters compared to bombers. Its like mercys, they need a nerf but are not used in very many high level games cus they are niche. Same could be said of beetles tho those are not in need of a nerf afaik. They are a niche, faction specific unit that serves its own specific purpose and does it well. Anyway ive said my opinion.

I have to agree with Penguin.

I never see Jesters used and I myself never use them because they are almost never worth it. If boosting the dps/mass is out of the question then maybe another method of making it more usable? What if the cost is reduced along with the maximum HP as well. That way it can be countered easier by T1 mobile AA. The whole point of niche units is to give different factions some flair. But if they are almost never used they might just as well be removed.

Using it as a defensive unit doesn't make sense because a t1 bomber is much more effective in that role. Bombers do area damage, cost less, and build faster. If the enemy player you're trying to defend against mixes some AA into their army then bombers will be much better because they will get at least one bomb off dealing damage to many targets where the Jester won't be able to deal nearly as much. If the player doesn't send AA the bomber would still be better because of the area damage and multiple passes.

For sniping early mexes the Jester is also inefficient. You can build about 5 T1 mexes for the price of one Jester. the reclaim from the destroyed Jesters alone will make up for the damage they deal.

The only concern I can understand thus far is the Comm snipes. However I constantly see people talk about wanting to punish players for poor/ lack of scouting. If the same mentality is applied then players should punished for poor AA defense as well. But I believe my original solution might still help. Cheaper Jesters with less HP will be easier to counter so it might balance out the Comm sniping potential.

Just my two cents

Cheaper Jesters with less HP will be easier to counter so it might balance out the Comm sniping potential.

Not sure if you are aware but that's exactly what happened to them in a previous patch: http://patchnotes.faforever.com/3718.html

Mass cost: 200 → 170
Energy cost: 5000 → 4250
Build time: 1000 → 850
Health: 525 → 350
MaxSpeed: 12 → 9
Damage: 16 → 15