Remove rating from (default) scoreboard
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Surprised to see so many people wanting to remove rating. In any game with greater than 2 players knowing which players are more dangerous with more eco is super important. Would you rather snipe the 1300 or the 1000 if you only had the resources to snipe one?
For 1v1 ladder I actually do support hiding rating as an option
put the xbox units in the game pls u_u
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actually this is genius: instead of players having to mess around with smurf accounts, we can have a dedicated smurf tmm queue
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@zeldafanboy You should be able to just see who is better play rather then looking who has the higher number. People have been accused "how did you got to X rating by playing like this".
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@tagada said in Remove rating from (default) scoreboard:
If I play with random players in 8+ player team games I rely on the ratings shown in the scoreboard to roughly estimate how my teammates will do in the game, If I see I have a 1.8k player vs his 1.5k opponent I know that probably I don't need to help him, while if the ratings are opposite now I can proactively react by making sure I am able to help my teammate cause there is a higher chance he will lose his lane.
This is exactly the mental pressure that I am describing in the first post. Rating is is an average across all maps and all compositions. A player can be really good on certain maps or certain positions, yet make fatal decisions when he or she plays outside of their comfort zone. It is an average, and that is about it.
When we hide the rating it means the game becomes more difficult, but also more meaningful:
- You can no longer make assumptions about your opponents based on their rating, but based on what you scouted
- You can no longer make assumptions about your allies based on their rating, but based on what you see them doing
At minute four you can easily determine whether the player (ally or opponent) in question is going to be reliable at its task. As an example: if a player is mid in seton's and he doesn't have a second land factory (or third, or fourth) at minute four then you know that he is going to need guidance and help.
The game makes it easy to inspect your ally: you have shared vision. But it requires the construction and survival of a scout to make a judgement about your opponent(s). And based on what you scout you can make the same decisions. But now you actually need to frequently scout your opponents, instead of seeing it on the scoreboard.
With thanks to @DerpFAFAnd to re-iterate: I am not asking for rating removal. I am not asking for removing the rating in the lobby. As I stated:
Rating is relevant for match making to guarantee a fair match. It is relevant in the lobby to perform some form of balancing. But once you are in-game I'd argue it should no longer be visible by default.
Where 'in-game' means that you are actually playing the game, not in the lobby waiting for the game to start.
@techhousenoob said in Remove rating from (default) scoreboard:
Otherwise people with more player knowledge have a significant advantage.
This is the only real issue because our player base is relatively small. Other issues such as 'who to snipe' is, in my opinion, approaching the game wrong: don't snipe, just take out the base instead and then snipe. At that point there is no base to give.
edit: typing is difficult
A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned
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Jip, I kind of support your idea for 1v1 ladder. But when playing 2v2 and 4v4 matchmaker with unknown players it is very relevant to planning — that first minute while you're waiting for your factory to build and trying to guess who will/should do what. Giving lower-rated players just a little bit of advice about where to focus their play as the game starts can significantly improve team performance.
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@jip said in Remove rating from (default) scoreboard:
instead of thinking that I'm a master mind who can now take up @Evan_ during his matchmaking
experimentlifestyle, I figured that instead of me doing something good it was Explosive that just made a difficult-to-come-back-from mistake. Both are true, but I felt the latter and because of that I did not enjoy the victory.Lol if you can beat Explosive you can beat me (for now).
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Players will still be able get the rating information of the people in their game—they will just alt+tab out of the game to look up the player in the faf client. This is just making getting information harder so I am against this change.
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Well there are 3 options.
Showing the player rating in game lobby and ingame:
- People get distracted by constantly seeing player ratings.
- People use this rating to manage the game.
1 = BAD
2 = GOOD
Hiding the player rating in game:
- People delight in their ignorance
- People can't judge players without the ranking number
1 = GOOD
2 = BAD
Hiding the player rating in game
AND
Show people how to use pen and paper and how to write the rating on a piece of paper.- People delight in their ignorance again
- People use a piece of paper with ratings to manage the game.
1 = GOOD
2 = GOOD
ok, now seriously;
After you understand that for some people it's really distracting to see the player rating
then you'll probably agree that hiding the rating is the lesser evil(and yes, making a note makes the game harder, I'll admit)
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This is not good idea for me.why make your life difficult and remember players' ratings before the game?the ratings are there to assess on a regular basis who is playing more difficult or easier.
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@neptun said in Remove rating from (default) scoreboard:
This is not good idea for me.why make your life difficult and remember players' ratings before the game?
You should do this to be considerate of players who have problems with the rating.
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As a compromise, maybe just make it a toggle so that the people who don't want to see the ratings can personally not see the ratings, but the people who want to see the ratings will be able to?
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@archsimkat said in Remove rating from (default) scoreboard:
As a compromise, maybe just make it a toggle so that the people who don't want to see the ratings can personally not see the ratings, but the people who want to see the ratings will be able to?
That solves example (1), but not example (2) of my original post. And considering that every bases their strategy on their opponents rating instead of what they are actually doing, I'd also argue that it would give an unfair advantage to those that do see the rating.
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J Jip referenced this topic on
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This makes party queueing even stronger since now I know the weak links on my team to cover for.
BTW I find it way more stressful to play worse players because then I have to proactively beat them and win elsewhere on the map. If I play someone better than me, I just need to monkey mimic what they do and it’s good for my team.
I also entirely disagree that this promote any healthy environment in game:
- As arch said, I can just alt tab and find the rating of the dude playing terrible on my team
- If I have 0 information about player skill level, I have zero ability to curate instructions or coordination. I either assume the person cannot do anything or they can do something and either situation is going to lead to more negativity than the current system half the time.
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I only read the original post from Jip, but it seems to me the problem mostly has to do with your own mindset, rather than the visibility of ratings. When I play a guy with higher rating than me I feel relaxed, because I have little to loose and alot to win. Also knowing the rating of the opponent is beneficial for tactics. You would create a situation where people will have to learn by heart the ratings of others. Lastly I believe a part of why people enjoy playing these type of multiplayer games is because there is a rating system that u can fight over. Take away the visibility of the rating and u take away some motivation to play for these people.
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It might work for 1v1 ladder, but would be really bad for teamgames, since it gives a big advantage to people who recognise the enemy team names and know how strong they are.
E.g. you might deliberately choose not to kill the low ranked player on their team, and also know that you'll need to support your ally if they're against a much higher ranked opponent.
So you either need to remove names as well as ranks for teamgames (which causes separate issues) so there is no way to tell who the strong players are on the enemy team (other than by what they do in game), or you need to leave ratings in for anything other than 1v1s
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Good idea!
with my low rating, I "feel" like I am sniped early in multiplayers custom games.
But it's maybe just a feeling... -
It should come down to these simple facts:
- Is this information a competitive advantage - yes
- Can I get this information through other means (alt tabbing or pulling up aeolus or Discord on my 2nd monitor to search up ratings, using Supreme Scoreboard) - yes
These two facts mean that people will be looking up this information at game start to maximize their advantages, and by forcing people to go around the game and alt tab while their factory is building to go farm some aeolus excel sheets is not an enjoyable experience. So either people need to make it impossible for anybody to access information about player ratings through the API or the client in general or it should just be kept the way it is.
The only other option is to go the GW path of just randomizing names alongside not showing rating, but this seems terrible as a user experience thing when you're a new player trying to find a community on the game but every game is against some random RNG seed that you have no history with.
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@ftxcommando said in Remove rating from (default) scoreboard:
It should come down to these simple facts:
- Is this information a competitive advantage - yes
- Can I get this information through other means (alt tabbing or pulling up aeolus or Discord on my 2nd monitor to search up ratings, using Supreme Scoreboard) - yes
These two facts mean that people will be looking up this information at game start to maximize their advantages, and by forcing people to go around the game and alt tab while their factory is building to go farm some aeolus excel sheets is not an enjoyable experience. So either people need to make it impossible for anybody to access information about player ratings through the API or the client in general or it should just be kept the way it is.
The only other option is to go the GW path of just randomizing names alongside not showing rating, but this seems terrible as a user experience thing when you're a new player trying to find a community on the game but every game is against some random RNG seed that you have no history with.
I would say that it does not create competitive advantage we have no prof of it that it does we can only say for sure that that it makes game more aggressive and more hostile towards players who dont preform according to the rating.
As for you second point yes you can dig up the information but unless you are tryhard would you even do it? Would you even want to go trough that laborious task? Especially now that "Mirror balance" is more often used as the way to balance out the games.
Also we need to consider who are we trying to help, who does not care and who affects the most.
Right now what i see is very vocal minority but it takes a while to find a ladder match, players are getting harassed over high expectations, infighting between teammates over who should listen who and people whining when they get low rated player on their team.I do believe some solution is needed and i choose to believe it is the correct one.
Analyze, Adapt, Overcome...
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@hinthunter said in Remove rating from (default) scoreboard:
I would say that it does not create competitive advantage we have no prof of it that it does we can only say for sure that that it makes game more aggressive and more hostile towards players who dont preform according to the rating.
I know my air is 400 rating lower than enemy air, I now know a late t2 all in push is likely a mass donation and not worth my time because of this. If enemy team does not take the time to look up this advantage, they can not adjust tactics based on the strength of positions. You can already see this in high level teamgames especially sentons where an incredibly weak air slot will result in some sort of cheese to disrupt enemy air or some sort of long term macro play where torpageddon will not be enough to win a pond. Or you just have your rock also decide to go make t3 air.
As for you second point yes you can dig up the information but unless you are tryhard would you even do it? Would you even want to go trough that laborious task? Especially now that "Mirror balance" is more often used as the way to balance out the games.
Yeah? It's information that helps me. That's like saying "would you dig up the information to hydro rush, only if you're a dirty tryhard that's a lot of work to do and the default land fac 2 pgen 2 mex BO is still ok on hydro rush maps." Also most high level lobbies do not use mirror balance because it isn't fun and specifically removes the metagame aspect of having to adapt strategies based on slot strengths and weaknesses.
Also we need to consider who are we trying to help, who does not care and who affects the most.
That's what I did.
Right now what i see is very vocal minority but it takes a while to find a ladder match, players are getting harassed over high expectations, infighting between teammates over who should listen who and people whining when they get low rated player on their team.
There is no evidence that this decreases toxicity. This requires me to not adjust my gameplay based on expectations that rating gives me information about. Instead I now need to adjust my gameplay around the fact my air is making his 1st t2 pgen at minute 9 when I'm halfway to transitioning to my all in push and now I'm boned for the rest of the game. Does this sound like the beginning of a healthy community interaction for you?
I do believe some solution is needed and i choose to believe it is the correct one.
Great.
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@hinthunter said in Remove rating from (default) scoreboard:
Right now what i see is very vocal minority
trust me guys, the non vocal majority is on my side, definitely
