LegendoftheStars 2021 Championship Tournament

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The groups look pretty balanced to me.

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I mean this is basically what I do for my tournaments. If you do GSL groups, what typically ends up happening is the elimination of the 1st seed vs 4th seed matchup. I like having that matchup there because I've been experimenting with giving prize money to 3rd place in groups. I also think it can be a good opportunity for the 4th seed to get solid tournament experience. It doesn't really cost the tournament any time and if the worse seed doesn't want to play it, they can just forfeit. GSL format has bigger advantages when all the games are being casted and eliminating that 1vs4 is good for the viewer experience.

My system also does this sort of snake seeding instead of snake draft. This is done mostly for time and organizational complexity, but it also acts as an activity incentive/reward for tournament performance. The only cost is you sometimes get imbalanced, although often the fact that subs sometimes need to be brought in last minute usually leads to certain group being weak anyway.

I'm not sure Group D is the worst for Yudi even. I think Yudi has the highest 1st place chances in Group D than any other group. Under snake seed Group D is typically the Group of Death but also the group that typically has the greatest potential for any player to take 1st. Perhaps Yudi should weigh in with what group he would've picked if he had the choice.

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@swkoll said in LegendoftheStars 2021 Championship Tournament:

I mean this is basically what I do for my tournaments. If you do GSL groups, what typically ends up happening is the elimination of the 1st seed vs 4th seed matchup. I like having that matchup there because I've been experimenting with giving prize money to 3rd place in groups. I also think it can be a good opportunity for the 4th seed to get solid tournament experience. It doesn't really cost the tournament any time and if the worse seed doesn't want to play it, they can just forfeit. GSL format has bigger advantages when all the games are being casted and eliminating that 1vs4 is good for the viewer experience.

Ending your day 1 stream coverage of the tournament with "oh I guess he forfeited haha" or "b-but he's playing for honor!" is quite the buzzkill to the supposed biggest event of the year. The point of GSL format is that every game has stakes and everything matters. Even better when you need to bring out the tiebreaker sheet to go and calculate who actually won on some whatever technicality. That tiebreaker system doesn't even exist for this round-robin group stage and can only hope we don't run into a situation of needing to make post-hoc rules because nobody thought about them again.

For example, tiebreaker game? Who chooses the map? Just a random thing that was vetoed? Some map outside the pool? TD gets to do it? Lots of room for lame decisions determining the event already.

My system also does this sort of snake seeding instead of snake draft. This is done mostly for time and organizational complexity, but it also acts as an activity incentive/reward for tournament performance. The only cost is you sometimes get imbalanced, although often the fact that subs sometimes need to be brought in last minute usually leads to certain group being weak anyway.

Then just do captain drafting. I hardly see the organizational complexity, I organized like 30 people to become 3 player teams in the span of 48 hours for another tournament. This is orders of magnitudes easier, even if you let each person pick. Literally set a date and if you can't make it submit a list of players you would want to pick in order of priority. If you do neither, it's picked for you based on whatever seeding you want. Process wouldn't even take an hour.

I'm not sure Group D is the worst for Yudi even. I think Yudi has the highest 1st place chances in Group D than any other group. Under snake seed Group D is typically the Group of Death but also the group that typically has the greatest potential for any player to take 1st. Perhaps Yudi should weigh in with what group he would've picked if he had the choice.

I would put like any person of C and D into the 2 bottoms of A or B and I would say it increases the group quality.

Also great to see that the whole group stage is going to be one day again so only 15% of the games get covered and nearly all potential casting manpower is busy playing.

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@ftxcommando said in LegendoftheStars 2021 Championship Tournament:

Ending your day 1 stream coverage of the tournament with "oh I guess he forfeited haha" or "b-but he's playing for honor!" is quite the buzzkill to the supposed biggest event of the year.

That's not a problem with TD'ing or the tournament, and more a problem with the fact that of the 16 best players we can scrape together for FAF, the skill difference between 1st and 16th is astronomical. You love TrueSkill, how much hope does an 1800 ladder have vs a 2400? Even a mid 2200 (me) vs a 2400 tagada or 2300 yudi seems unwinnable in a bo3 format. There will be imbalanced matches in any group due to this.

We also have to account for the fluctuation of skill from AFK players who may or may not prep for a tournament, who may or may not be at their peak form from 4-6 YEARS ago. Try seeding that fairly.

I think the groups are realistically as good as we can get them without manually drafting for perfect balance. Two hard groups, a moderate group, and an easier group (as determined by eyeballing it) seems fine to me. The only other way to possibly do this fairly would be to seed on ladder rating, but there are a ton of people in this tournament who haven't played more then 10 ladder games in this entire year, so that is also subject to some inaccuracies.

...also yes, BH is only a little stronger then me, if at all xD

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My eyeballs must not be working, what is the easier group?

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@tex said in LegendoftheStars 2021 Championship Tournament:

@ftxcommando said in LegendoftheStars 2021 Championship Tournament:

Ending your day 1 stream coverage of the tournament with "oh I guess he forfeited haha" or "b-but he's playing for honor!" is quite the buzzkill to the supposed biggest event of the year.

That's not a problem with TD'ing or the tournament, and more a problem with the fact that of the 16 best players we can scrape together for FAF, the skill difference between 1st and 16th is astronomical. You love TrueSkill, how much hope does an 1800 ladder have vs a 2400? Even a mid 2200 (me) vs a 2400 tagada or 2300 yudi seems unwinnable in a bo3 format. There will be imbalanced matches in any group due to this.

Why are you talking about this as a problem with TrueSkill I don't know why you quoted me on Double Elim format discussions for this paragraph. If every FAF player was an SC2 Maru equivalent it doesn't change that Round Robin results in situations where a dude is guaranteed a loss simply because there are 4 possibilities for it and people inevitably have bad days. Nobody wants to hear about rounds concluding because a guy quits or seeing games go on for no real reason except a dude feels like continuing to play. It's basically impossible to make it sound epic as a caster especially if anyone in the audience cares to look up why they are watching this game. If we're agreeing that we should just flat out ignore the games and pretend they aren't happening for the audience and the casters, why are are we including them? If both these players want to play "because tourney experience" they can go ahead and do it on their own freetime outside of the tournament. Maybe literally do it immediately after the group stage is over and accomplish the same thing.

In this theoretical situation, exactly a maximum of 4 people are ever benefitting from this round robin with a potential 4 not wanting to play (otherwise they would freely in their own time) with 2 casters not wanting to cover it and a potential infinite of viewers rather watching a game that actually matters for the rest of the event.

We also have to account for the fluctuation of skill from AFK players who may or may not prep for a tournament, who may or may not be at their peak form from 4-6 YEARS ago. Try seeding that fairly.

Easy. Let players in the tournament seed it through captain or sequential seeding. Don't do some random seeding 10 days before the tournament using some system nobody expected to be used for seeding that wasn't even intended to be used to showcase skill. It's like the shittiest thing possible. Seeding by rating would be strictly better, a home-baked tourney ELO would be the best but even that would fall apart due to lack of data breadth.

...also yes, BH is only a little stronger then me, if at all xD

lol

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Excuse me FTX, Blackheart is 2233 MMR on ladder, I am 2264. As you have taught us all, TrueSkill is always correct and not to be questioned.

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Signing up.

profile picture credits to petric

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