Wars of Glory (WoG): A (currently unfinished) rebalance mod with a fresh perspective on SupCom core gameplay.
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EDIT: This mod has been released. See this thread as well as the mod vault! A gameplay guide is included in the download (mods folder) as a pdf.
Wars of Glory (WoG) is a balance mod which fundamentally changes—in many cases, re-imagines—the fundamentals of unit and economy balance with an emphasis on epic games, massive battles, slower, deliberate gameplay, and deep strategic and logistical options. It’s a somewhat slower paced experience with a pretty different balance model, and it might appeal to players who like the SupCom strategy-over-micro based philosophy but might be offput by the speed and intensity of FA(F) games.
It's easier to show what I'm going for than to tell-see this video.
Also, it isn't finished (about 65% done), and I'd like some help-I've realized redesigning the entire freaking game might be too much for one man to do. It hasn't been uploaded, because, again, it isn't done.
While the mod is complex and has a lot of moving parts, it can be boiled down as follows:
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Unit damage and speed has generally been reduced; range has increased. As a result, battles take more time to resolve, giving the player more time to plan and execute strategies. The game takes longer to play, but has a more relaxed, almost board-game like feel.
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The economy system is based on holding onto and developing existing mass points instead of taking new ones. Mex upgrades take not a lot of mass, a ton of energy, and a long time.
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Tier advancement is integrated into the commander engineering upgrade. T1 engineers are the only engineers (unless you're Aeon), and can build all three tiers when the commander is upgraded.
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The factory upgrade system has been replaced with a "two-factory" system. Standard factories produce Tier 1 unites, where strategic factories produce Tier 1-3 units. Once you build a strategic factory, it can construct higher tiers once the ACU's build suite is upgraded.
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Units and tiering have been reworked, with higher tiers playing a support role for T1. T2 is directly T1 support, where T3 is more experimental like than in FA(F).
This mod has been made more or less “for fun” and is not meant to replace or fix FAF (as a 200-level player, I refuse to even try). Many of the balance mechanics predate FAF, FA, or even the original SupCom, and are rooted in gameplay concepts I’ve had in my head since the original 2006-era interviews/media/etc. To some degree, I’ve been planning this mod for 15 years!
Anyway, let me know what you think and if you want to help out.
Also, these guys:
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Sounds like a perfect mod for my No Rush No Nuke No Arty No Tele 12 the Pass games B)
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I really like the big T1 pgen, energy storages as upgrades and fabricators. Looks almost like how adjacency should have been done, though it also reminds me of Tiberian Sun a bit.
Making the Tiers broader focused on the ACU, or something else, is also a great idea.
However, I find the regular game slow enough as it is (yes I miss Starcraft 2), so this is not for me.
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Can't wait to give it a spin
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Not sure if I'd actually end up using this myself much since I personally like the faster paced game, but I love the concept and the work and thought you have put into this! Sounds like something a lot of people would like to use and I'll be sure to give it a try once it's finished.
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Very interesting. Any news about naval affairs?
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@blackjaguar I haven't started on naval yet.
The philosophy of the mod is generally "if it looks big and expensive and powerful, it is." Frigates would probably get quite a buff and be more similar to the T2 ships in cost/size/etc.
That being said, vanilla FAF naval is probably the most in line with how the balance design for land and air is working, so it might not be as drastic as those other two tiers.
I'm open to suggestions!
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Seraphim balance is (mostly) done!
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Is it intentional that the UEF cruiser has a 70- max range on it's Tac missiles, yet the Seraphim can shoot at 150? I ask mainly because in terms of shore bombardment outranging the t2 static artillery is a Huge deal, given that the artillery can kill a ship with one shot now.
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@lightsaviour said in Wars of Glory (WoG): A (currently unfinished) rebalance mod with a fresh perspective on SupCom core gameplay.:
Is it intentional that the UEF cruiser has a 70- max range on it's Tac missiles, yet the Seraphim can shoot at 150? I ask mainly because in terms of shore bombardment outranging the t2 static artillery is a Huge deal, given that the artillery can kill a ship with one shot now.
It appears you've found a bug
-the UEF cruiser categories overlap with MMLs in the blueprints file. I wondered why cruiser stats acted so strange. Thanks.T2 artillery shoudn't kill a ship in one shot-they do between 500-700 damage per shot. Are you sure you aren't thinking of T3 artillery?
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@vanifica you were right, I was mistaken about the one-shotting, good to know UEF having next to no range on missile cruisers wasn't intended.
On a related topic my buddys and I have ben having a great time with the mod so far. it's tons of fun even if a little bit raw at the edges. Looking forward to how it develops over time.
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@lightsaviour Glad to hear it! Means a lot to me
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This really needs to be playtested by humans, and I'm only one guy. If you want to help playtest it or find any issues, please let me know!
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Again with the cruisers, seems the naval tac missiles are fast enough to hit targets that are in motion that subs and land units actually have a good bit of trouble dodging them, turns them into a bit of a "strong against all" unit, countered t1 subs, t2 naval balls and hover land, torp bombers work up until about 4-5 cruisers get together at which point tens of them die at a time (against seraphim).
main issue seems to be that the missiles travel too fast relative to movement speeds after the slow-down. -
@LightSaviour Yes, I see that. The issues are as follows, as I see it:
- Cruiser missiles have a splash of 3 in the vanilla game (??whyyy??), which means they can shoot at subs in the code because the splash reaches under water. I didn't notice this before.
- The traditional usage of WoG missile units (or indirect fire in general) is extremely poor refire rate counteracts the potential "antiarmy" effects.
I've uploaded Version 15 in the mod vault. Let me know how this works out. Changes:
- Cruisers don't hit subs
- Cruiser missile rate of fire slower
- Aeon missile ship can't hit subs
- Aeon missile ship fires more slowly
- Misc. Swift Wind tweaks (heavy interceptor)
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Further testing info
-- ??exploit found?? combat reclaim is insanely fast, to the point that massing engy's would be better than land units at t1, possibly t2, engineering stations (the hive incredibly so) can easily devour swarms of units if you give the orders--Uef cruiser dps is something around half the output of the seraphim one, across fewer projectiles, 15 dps for a purely anti-static weapon is really bad if your opponent can get a shield or two up even without anti-missile, seraphiim one is valid at anti-structure still , so more a Uef problem of not being able to actually break things before a shield and a half dozen TMD get put up to stop your missiles
Cybran and UEF have really bad expansion and ability to reach t2, it's really effective to speed an acu teching up with Aeon or Seraphim, but due to linear decline of build-power as you add engineers UEF and Cybran fall really far behind in terms of buildpower on any kind of large project in tier 1, or when they need to build things outside the range of already built engy stations
basicly Aeon and Seraphim get to add 4+4+2+1+0.5 etc.... to build timers, where UEF and Cybran are stuck with 2+2+1+0.5+0.25 etc....., add in some hiccups with extra build time per each individual unit coming off of a factory (about 1-2 seconds average)
one of the most impactful things in this regard is Seraphim and Aeon split-push bases
in about 2-3 minutes a single t2 transport of engineers can get 6+ factories to start producing tier 1 unitsit takes about 4 minutes for UEF or Cybran to get an un-upgraded engy station and a further 2-4 minutes to get factories up to match, expansion both eco and military wise suffers due to the discrepancy
it gets worse when factoring that the superior building capability is also backed by double-tiered RAS, a massive boost to early t-2/ late t-1 economy
---our possible fixes if it helps were if possible,
eliminating declining Build power to make the numbers line up so that "swarm" engineers aren't left in the dust as soon as multiple stack on a build,
reducing the build time of engineering stations so that UEF and Cybran can get to building quicker and expand in the mid game, reductions to the BP of build stations might be needed later if this is done, but it would require testing to be sure
or the simplest would be to just make the t1 engineers all use 4 BP as a starting point, Aeon and Seraphim maintain a signifigant edge in the case of starting up bases and small-scale builds such as single or double mass plots, but lose out once engy stations get involved in bigger bases/ triple and quad mass plots
--ishlovoahs using less transport space than other t3's has also been ridiculously dangerous, dropping a single transport with 8 loaded upp ontop of a section of eco is basicly impossible to stop without t3 AA, due to a combination of really high HP on the bots (flak won't deal meaningful AOE damage to them unlike how it shreds most t1 and 2 units in transports) and the transport itself being able to tank t1 AA/flak AA, or interceptors more than long enough to go where it wants and drop off its payload
---final issue is t1 arty in larger numbers can rush past armies without bothering to actually fight them pretty often and just focus on nuking your economy buildings, maybe just lower the HP so that you can be encouraged to use them as artillery instead of using them as swarmy building nukers?
Positive notes
Cruisers no longer wipe whole land armies on their own
and submarines are able to do their job rather well without threat of cruise missiles swatting them
-as always making an effort to say that while we found a bunch of issues the mod is really interesting and we had a ton of fun with it, just kind of hard to make points about positives without basicly repeating your description of the mod back to you
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@LightSaviour thanks for the info-this is good stuff. I'll look into it. It would be really helpful if I could either A) play a game with you guys and see how you guys are playing it or B) see a replay.
I'll post some ideas on balance later tonight or tomorrow.
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Further testing info
-- ??exploit found?? combat reclaim is insanely fast, to the point that massing engy's would be better than land units at t1, possibly t2, engineering stations (the hive incredibly so) can easily devour swarms of units if you give the ordersYes. Fixed. I noticed that early, but I wasn't sure if it affected combat and how the reclaim vs unit damage stuff works is deep in the scripts. The hive can no longer reclaim; the kennel drones can, but they have an HP of 6 and are expensive (IE, just shoot them down). Also changed engi reclaim time (which is too fast to begin with).
--Uef cruiser dps is something around half the output of the seraphim one, across fewer projectiles, 15 dps for a purely anti-static weapon is really bad if your opponent can get a shield or two up even without anti-missile, seraphiim one is valid at anti-structure still , so more a Uef problem of not being able to actually break things before a shield and a half dozen TMD get put up to stop your missiles
In WoG, Seraph cruiser missiles do 37DPS, UEF do 18DPS.
In FAF, Seraph cruiser missiles do 250DPS, UEF do 120DPS.
The ratio between these two ships hasn't changed. UEF missiles also fire in bursts of 4. Shields are also pricy (2500m or so and another 2000-3000m in energy), so you can't counter every base expansion with them.
Cybran and UEF have really bad expansion and ability to reach t2, it's really effective to speed an acu teching up with Aeon or Seraphim, but due to linear decline of build-power as you add engineers UEF and Cybran fall really far behind in terms of buildpower on any kind of large project in tier 1, or when they need to build things outside the range of already built engy stations
Aeon/Seraph engis cost 2x as much as the UEF/Cybran ones-the build rate per cost is the same across all factions T1 engis. 100 mass is a lot for a T1 engineer. For upgrading your commander, you'll just need exactly 2x the engis to do the same thing. Unless you're having issues fitting them around the ACU...
basicly Aeon and Seraphim get to add 4+4+2+1+0.5 etc.... to build timers, where UEF and Cybran are stuck with 2+2+1+0.5+0.25 etc....., add in some hiccups with extra build time per each individual unit coming off of a factory (about 1-2 seconds average)
one of the most impactful things in this regard is Seraphim and Aeon split-push bases
in about 2-3 minutes a single t2 transport of engineers can get 6+ factories to start producing tier 1 units
it takes about 4 minutes for UEF or Cybran to get an un-upgraded engy station and a further 2-4 minutes to get factories up to match, expansion both eco and military wise suffers due to the discrepancyA cybran T2 transport full of T1 engis can build an engi station in about a minute. And that station has the same build power as 10 more engis for much less cost. The engi station can then assist production of a second; each one equivalent to 6 aeon engineers. If anything, I would think that Aeon/Seraphim would be in trouble.
Also remember that the UEF station drones can fly and have massive build powers-you can just move these along with your engineers to wherever you want.
it gets worse when factoring that the superior building capability is also backed by double-tiered RAS, a massive boost to early t-2/ late t-1 economy
Just to clarify-you're building RAS late T1? 250Eis going to cost a ton of mass in power (probably over 4000)-you should be attacking your opponent!
Engineering stations can be used to more quickly upgrade mexes in the core base, which is a real bonus against RAS. The UEF commander RAS also produces a decent amount of energy.
---our possible fixes if it helps were if possible,
eliminating declining Build power to make the numbers line up so that "swarm" engineers aren't left in the dust as soon as multiple stack on a build,
I'll think about this, but I would request you play it some more. Remember that swarm engineers are also much cheaper and allow UEF/Cybran to multitask more efficiently, since more engineers can build more projects at the same time.
reducing the build time of engineering stations so that UEF and Cybran can get to building quicker and expand in the mid game, reductions to the BP of build stations might be needed later if this is done, but it would require testing to be sure
Let's wait on this change for now.
or the simplest would be to just make the t1 engineers all use 4 BP as a starting point, Aeon and Seraphim maintain a signifigant edge in the case of starting up bases and small-scale builds such as single or double mass plots, but lose out once engy stations get involved in bigger bases/ triple and quad mass plots
Remember that Aeon/Seraphim engineers also cost much more. Aeon also get higher tier engineers to counteract engi stations, and Seraphim engineers' buildrates increase substantially with each ACU upgrade.
--ishlovoahs using less transport space than other t3's has also been ridiculously dangerous, dropping a single transport with 8 loaded upp ontop of a section of eco is basicly impossible to stop without t3 AA, due to a combination of really high HP on the bots (flak won't deal meaningful AOE damage to them unlike how it shreds most t1 and 2 units in transports) and the transport itself being able to tank t1 AA/flak AA, or interceptors more than long enough to go where it wants and drop off its payload
Yes. I should have fixed this. Ilshavohs are sort of orphans in since they are stronger than T2, but weaker than T3. Stats are closer to T3, so it makes sense to give them a T3 slot.
---final issue is t1 arty in larger numbers can rush past armies without bothering to actually fight them pretty often and just focus on nuking your economy buildings, maybe just lower the HP so that you can be encouraged to use them as artillery instead of using them as swarmy building nukers?
Infantry should rip them to shreds
Do you have a replay you can show?
Positive notes
Cruisers no longer wipe whole land armies on their own
and submarines are able to do their job rather well without threat of cruise missiles swatting them
-as always making an effort to say that while we found a bunch of issues the mod is really interesting and we had a ton of fun with it, just kind of hard to make points about positives without basicly repeating your description of the mod back to you
I uploaded some of these suggests as version 16. Let me know how it goes.
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apologies if it was unclear with the engy suggestions, it was meant to be a case of "any one of these will work but this is what we came up with, all of them at once, or likely even two of them would be nuts
I'd love to try and send you some replays, but after searching the FAF client it seems any replays newer than about 8 months ago from our games do not exist.
https://discord.gg/V66mg6am
I can however invite you to our discord, not 100% sure if our schedules overlap for games but we can probably manage to at least talk in voice/ the text chats over thereor the simplest would be to just make the t1 engineers all use 4 BP as a starting point, Aeon and Seraphim maintain a signifigant edge in the case of starting up bases and small-scale builds such as single or double mass plots, but lose out once engy stations get involved in bigger bases/ triple and quad mass plots
"begin quote" Remember that Aeon/Seraphim engineers also cost much more. Aeon also get higher tier engineers to counteract engi stations, and Seraphim engineers' buildrates increase substantially with each ACU upgrade. "end quote"
that is in part what I was referring too, the idea that past t1, Aeon and seraphim have good options for getting larger initial BP sums to complete smaller outposts and projects very rapidly, where-as Cybran and UEF end up with larger BP for "the big stuff"
That said, your judgement is of course the end decision, just clarifying in case I was misunderstood. -
@lightsaviour Ok, I joined your discord.
I managed to dig up some of your replays. You guys have been having fun
We can talk more there.
