Naval Balance Survey

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@big-bennis-magic said in Naval Balance Survey:

I think though that as a last resort naval defense the launcher builds just a little too slow, and I think a slight buff in terms of build time would be a nice way to fine tune it

It is more like the first resort after losing navy. If spamming up T2 torpedoes is nerfed, T2 land PD is the first resort.

The key difference for me is that T2 land PD cannot kill the submarines, and the submarines will prevent your opponent from rebuilding its own navy until he builds torpedo bombers. This seems very fair to me. His superior eco allows him to shut down the coastal bombardment, but not to cancel your victory entirely.

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I've always wondered why the torp launchers were floating.

If the t2 sunk after built could be area denial to t2 destroyers so one can win navy and keep it but have to fight for the beach before surface bombard

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could T1 PD and SMDs be allowed to be built on water, SMDs maybe but T1 PDs might need to be considered as if your on a map like setons then you could build defenses on the water but hover (especially zuthees) could attack them, and might give navy more of a role to kill them and allow a defensive option for navy against hover unless its T2 or 3, also Aeon frigates should be reduced in cost if it has lesser HP then the other factions even if it needs more energy to be built, frigates are just unbalanced in general even with T3 involved, they all should have their HP reduced by like 500 maybe, also reduce the shards and coopers hp as well, the speed of the units should be changed to feel more diverse or feel more like the faction your playing, the frigates could stay the same speed to catch up with other units but units like destroyers and cruisers just have the same speed, maybe have the UEF and cybran cruisers just as fast as destroyers while the aeon and seriphem destroyers should be faster, or could make the sera and aeon cruisers slower somewhat, also should buff the cruisers HP by like 1000 hp in my opinion as i feel like torp bombers if enough of them are built could just shift G a full fleet of cruisers and wipe them out, could buff the AA and range of it as well, also the UEF and aeon cruisers need a buff with their main guns in terms of range, they are most likely never going to get used in naval combat so might as well use the guns to fire on land, also there needs to be options to target deep inland and strat subs are the only things that can do so, could maybe give them more of a role to snipe key targets if theres air superiority in the way and need to destroy something , and maybe add something to the UEF and Aeon strat subs like torp defense or speed for aeon or a deck gun or reduced cost for UEF, i think strat subs should be used more other then nuking, would you use the hauthuum just for nuking? could make the sera carrier fill in the role of killing land targets deep within

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also should torpedos be able to be dodged if they are out of range of when they were fired like torp bombers and torpedo defenses, they could also expire if thats not an option

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@valki Aeon and UEF T2 PD can kill subs with groudfire, also T2 arty of any kind can also, oh also T1 bombers with ground fire can also work against subs (aeon bomber has a trail in the water when bombing also) oh and T1 cybran mobile arty as well as zuthees can do the same as well

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also should T2 and 3 units be reduced in cost as well?

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@annihilator1066 said in Naval Balance Survey:

@valki Aeon and UEF T2 PD can kill subs with groudfire, also T2 arty of any kind can also, oh also T1 bombers with ground fire can also work against subs (aeon bomber has a trail in the water when bombing also) oh and T1 cybran mobile arty as well as zuthees can do the same as well

Only with a lot of micro, lower 50% of players don't know or don't do this.

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The ground fire is my main issue, just take it out alltogether. Also cybran frigates should be weaker with all the t2 stealth trickery invovled.

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The main reason cybran navy can be said to be good is due to it being piggybacked by it's beast of a frig. Nerf the frig and you will suddenly have to deal with buffed t2 stage considering that the consensus is that it's weaker than it's counterparts.

Sure the stealth is annoying but other factions have better tools, and the moment you start losing just a little bit you are gonna get snowballed on hard as you can't even properly retreat.

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Cruiser AA just feels way too powerful in terms of raw DPS.
However, nerf it too much and you can end up in a situation where naval superiority is useless if you don't have air superiority.
So, what if cruiser AA had way less DPS, but even more range? That way it's not gonna be able to melt waves of bombers, but the sheer range of the AA would allow you to maintain an air presence you otherwise couldn't have, which in turn would be what protects the fleet from large waves of bombers.
It'd couple really well with aircraft carriers, since you could keep ASFs far away from them making it much more safe to strike from and return to the carrier.

For the UEF cruiser AA is currently a range of 75 and a DPS of 500 (Cybran and Aeon have same range and similar DPS, Seraphim are weird).
I'm thinking something like a range of 100 and DPS of 300, or even 120 and 200.

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So any results of that survey ?

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@bellatrix cruisers are the most inefficent dedicated mobile AA there is. One passing them with torpedo bombers is mass efficient.

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If a small ship is so important to navy meta, why not add corvettes as small T3 units?

Then you can go back to T1 < T2 < T3 also for navy and nerf frigates to hearts content.
(and make only T3 subs immune to ground fire)

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Adding units is off the table as far as I'm aware.

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Buff dps of T1 subs so they are worth building to counter mass frigates

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What about a DPS boost to subs coupled with a health nerf, so they're more effective at punishing an opponent who just does frigate spam, without increasing their overall power level to a point where it switches from frigate spam to sub (and some sort of AA) spam.

E.g. increase their DPS by 1/3, decrease their health by 25% (which proportionately should offset the DPS boost)?

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@randomwheelchair said in Naval Balance Survey:

Adding units is off the table as far as I'm aware.

I shoot that notion down with T3 MAA and watch from my HQ.

But seriously, when were the last units added and (when) was it decided that no new units would be added?

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@Valki It has been a long time since they were added though I don't remember exactly how long. Years at least. I don't think it's actually decided that no new units will be added so much as that will take a massive amount of work and debate to add and test new units against FAF balance and I highly doubt anything like that would even be considered until after higher priority things like the SACU rework are done. At least, that's what I assume is the biggest thing in the pipeline from what I've heard.

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Technically, the RAS SACU presets could be considered "new" units. I don't know if those predate or postdate the HQ/t3 maa.

I don't think it's so much a formal policy against adding units, as it is that there are big barriers to adding units
1 - they would need a properly-animated 3D model
2 - they need to not ruin game balance. if they don't improve the balance, why add them? So that takes a lot of testing. The way people use units can evolve over time and as people discover how to use units better, they need to be rebalanced again.
3 - you might need to add 1 for each faction just to maintain balance, so quadruple that workload. And that means you need 3D modelers who can make designs that are consistent with all 4 faction styles.
4 - it could affect or break a lot of mods and AI projects. If you add new features to the game for the new units, that can break things. So you may end up creating a lot of work for a lot of people.
5 - Players coming from outside of FAF then have more to learn in order to play the game.

The disruption to the game is generally a negative thing. You need a very compelling situation to justify adding a unit. I think people in general don't want to work on making new units for the game if the units probably won't be used. Even an unpopular map will get some play but if you make a new unit, there's like a 99.5% chance it will never be used in a serious game. At best it gets added to a modpack. So people don't even try.

If there was an active modding community that made 10 new professional-looking units every month that were carefully considered to fit within the game balance, we probably would see more change-up in the unit lineups with units being added/removed, models replaced with better-looking models, etc. But where would we get the kind of energy necessary for that? It might take 100 people cooperating to crank out 10 units a month. Imagine if there was an active modpack scene where the new units in the modpack were actually well-balanced for FAF games. If that existed, over time there would probably be a lot more crossover between the modpacks and the official FAF unit list.

Also, the mindset for a competitive RTS gamer generally should be learning how to work with the units you got. You can try to figure out ways to use units more creatively, but you don't get to change the game to bend it to your desires. You have to work with the game's mechanics/balance to try to improve yourself. You don't change the game, you blame yourself, watching some replays, practice, and try again. So most high-rated players aren't even interested in spending their time to expand the game, or at least they won't develop that interest until they've played 4000+ ranked games. So the people making the units would largely be guys with about 600 ladder rating. Which means they probably don't have great instincts in terms of making units that fit within the game's overall balance.

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@arma473 Thank you for taking the time to give such a detailed answer. Very valid points, it would only work if people actively came forward to do the work right?

Only would like to comment on 5 and disruption, it is a trade-off between the negativity you mentioned and a "meta upset" that people need to prevent the game becoming stale. In that regard I think "Corvettes" are generally appealing in most settings, so might come out ahead in this area.