Small Engi health increase proposal

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So, the other day I was having a meltdown because I lost an engi to a lab that was actively being guarded by a tank. Feels bad man. To me, this does not feel right, and the primary reason for this happening was that labs seem to have this hidden superpower of never getting shot if the terrain is a tiny bit bumpy. This lets the lab dance up to the engi with target priority set, and kill the engi before dying a happy lab. Sometimes it even gets away afterwards and takes a small piece of my soul with it.

Now, I don't really know how to fix this without breaking the game. I was thinking about projectile speed increases, hitbox stuff, all things that have some wider balance implications. But that is a conversation for another time. One day I have grand dreams of more predictable interactions early game between tank vs tank, inty vs inty. Stuff with DoT and faster projectiles/turret tracking for predictable fights and less snowball from 50-50 fights with 1 unit each. A man can dream.

But for now, I had the great idea to give the engi a 25-50HP buff, to around 150-175 HP each. This won't change how many shots ACU needs to kill, it wont change bomber interaction (unless you get that strange UEF napalm burn dodge micro going on), and it really won't change the engi dying due to a tank/mechmarine attacking an unguarded engi. 1 more second of DPS wont matter in that case... But it might help engi survivability when a mech marine yolo's its way past your striker and kills your engi with its dying breath.

Any thoughts?

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I guess it's a matter of what balance you prefer: one of static play, where everybody sends an engi and a guard to the engi and in terms of strategy can feel save with their move,

Or one where making a lab and using it well in terms of micro gives you a legit chance to achieve a big tactical victory with your play.

I prefer the latter one. We don't need more bread and butter play, we need crazy explosions and big messes.

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rush radar and catch lab before it has arrived, Kappa.

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I mean, I am contradicting myself a little with this statement, but hear me out: I really love aggressive chaotic play. But IMO it should not be at the expense of unpredictable unit interactions.

My issue stems mostly from the fact that if in the early game, I value an engis life/expansion route so much that I have a tank guard it rather then screen for it, I want to know its safe from a lab. The act of building a tank specifically to defend is hugely important in the early game because I could be raiding elsewhere with the same tank, raiding elsewhere with two labs, or I could simply have another engi expanding in a different direction instead. To have invested in the tank, just to lose the engi regardless, is a huge loss early.

You can't early expand, raid, protect engis, spam reclaim, and spam factories all at once when you start a game. You need to make a choice in how you spend your first units. Sending a tank to defend an engi from a lab you spotted should have a higher chance of success then we have currently IMO. It wont take away from successful LAB raids, because you realistically cant expand everywhere and defend it all at once. Where you choose to defend should matter and not be left to as much chance.

Also, I don't really like the luck factor to it. It wouldn't be too far fetched to say that games could be won or lost even with the same exact opening used both times, just because in one game the lab dodged an extra shot and killed the engi before it made its expansion to the mex group 1.5 minutes away from the main base.

That's just my take on it. Increase aggression to the max all you want, but I just want the early game to be consistent in its unit interactions. The early game can be REALLY snowbally just due to a little bad luck in the early game. I know I have won and lost games due to a single hero lab/tank that had no right to 1v3 because of some fluke of unit targeting.

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Sure - give the engineers more HP - in fact make them as tough as a light tank. However, that should cost additional mass - almost as much as the light tank - and - it should slow the engineer down. Ideally - make it an enhancement for your engineer - 'armor package' - with those results. Best of both worlds.

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Why adjust engi hp?

Seems like the easiest fix would be to increase LAB hitbox size. That way tanks don't need years worth of marksmanship training in order to hit them

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That kind of change would be nicely tested in the 1v1 beta tournament morax proposed.

I personally don't think a HP buff would change anything to the aggressive meta we have now. Increasing lab hitbox feels like a more solid solution to achieve your goal ... but now, do we really want to nerf labs back to where the were before the latest patch ?

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@auricocorico said in Small Engi health increase proposal:

That kind of change would be nicely tested in the 1v1 beta tournament morax proposed.

I personally don't think a HP buff would change anything to the aggressive meta we have now. Increasing lab hitbox feels like a more solid solution to achieve your goal ... but now, do we really want to nerf labs back to where the were before the latest patch ?

I love LABs now, I often have a few in my standard build queue to split off for raiding and with micro they can attack even lightly defended targets or stray tanks. Please don't increase the hitbox.

@sprouto said in Small Engi health increase proposal:

Sure - give the engineers more HP - in fact make them as tough as a light tank. However, that should cost additional mass - almost as much as the light tank - and - it should slow the engineer down. Ideally - make it an enhancement for your engineer - 'armor package' - with those results. Best of both worlds.

I halfheartedly suggested that, but then also increasing buildpower to keep the bp/mass consistent: https://forum.faforever.com/topic/1544/what-if-engineers-were-2x-hp-cost-buildpower/23

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I was under the impression that tinkering with the hitbox was a difficult procedure, which is why I proposed an alternative solution. If a simple hitbox fix does the job I'm all for it.

And also @rico, I know you love your aeon labs. Im not trying to nerf labs into the dust, I rather like labs. I just want consistency in unit interactions. If labs become too weak with a hitbox nerf, but are at least hit consistently, I would be happy to support a buff again to get them to rough parity with where we are now.

...Except aeon labs, those things suck. I watched 4 of them descent on 4 thaams like piranhas and leave unscathed. I vote they go to 4DPS and 8 HP for balance reasons.

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As long as i can load them in a transport, i don't quit care about what you do to aeon lab 🤡