What if... Engineers were 2x hp, cost, buildpower

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Many engineers are spammed, few are a deliberate choice.

What would happen if we would increase engineers by a factor of 2, or more?
So 300 hp for UEF, 240 for Aeon, 10 build power, 104 mass, 520 energy, 520 build time.

  • Expanding is more deliberate, each expansion path has a higher cost and some will not be worth that in the first few minutes.
  • Defending engineers is more important
  • Defending engineers is easier. With more hitpoints, attacking the engineer first instead of the escort is less likely to be successful.
  • Some engineers (UEF most) can survive a single bomber run at x2
  • Fewer engineers, better game performance

Some effects get better with higher modifiers like x3, but it might get out of the comfort zone of the game itself. At x3 all engineers are immune to bombers, do we want that?
UEF engineers resisting most bombs once feels good, though maybe the low hp engineers do then deserve a maneuverability (not speed) buff to help with dodging, maybe Cybran some regen?

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Wait, you propose to destroy every build-order ever made ? And all the early game balance ?
Nice idea. Can't wait to see what balance team will say :))

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Uh, No thanks.

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It was less of a concrete suggestion, because I didn't expect this to ever happen, but more of a "What if" scenario on what would happen.

@auricocorico said in What if... Engineers were 2x hp, cost, buildpower:

Wait, you propose to destroy every build-order ever made ? And all the early game balance ?
Nice idea. Can't wait to see what balance team will say :))

Shake up of meta then
It is only a useful shake-up if it leads to more and interesting options in the early game. Do you think that would happen?

@tagada said in What if... Engineers were 2x hp, cost, buildpower:

Uh, No thanks.

Too crazy or too much work? - As I am more interested in your thoughts than actually expecting a suggestion to be adopted, could you elaborate?

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It just breaks the game and throws out of the window our understanding of early game as well as any kind of BO completely.

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Would take about 5 minutes to make it as a mod and try it out.

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First bomber

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@sinforosa said in What if... Engineers were 2x hp, cost, buildpower:

Would take about 5 minutes to make it as a mod and try it out.

If/when I have time (and less problems) I might actually start doing that kind of stuff.

Still, understanding how things like this play out is helpful to know what to experiment with.

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Would be a fun mod

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Why not increase engineer hp slightly. 200 for UEF and a bit less for the others, Cybran lowest with 155.

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Why not reduce all cybran structures and units hp by 50 per cent and increase uef by 50% and call it faction diversity. Maybe it would help to give all cybran units stealth from start and call it faction diversity too once you are at it. That proposal is roundabout as good as yours. Structure hp differences are literally the most unfair and unengaging “factional difference” there is. Uef MeX surviving drops miraculously and cybran structures dying to strong winds is just utterly frustrating. It messes with everything, no one accounts for that shit when playing and what nerfs does Uef get for higher hp? Do structures cost more or build slower? Are cybran structures cheaper or faster? Regen on buildings is inconsequential, if I was balance councillor I would equalize that shit and be done with it.

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@funkoff If we are just concerned about rebalancing engineers, or providing faction diversity to engineers like stealth for cybran, then yes this would work too.

I also thought that having expansion be more expensive would be interesting.

With even higher modifiers than x2 you could have battles over expanding engineers. They are a huge investment, and cannot be focused down quickly, so your escort battles it out with the raiders.

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It could be an interesting idea and perhaps would be healthy for the game to increase just the engineer hp so that in 1 engie + 1 tank + 1 scout vs 1 tank + 1 scout the engie doesn't die 100% of the time due to advanced target priorities, since that engie kill has such a massive ripple effect on the rest of the game. Sometimes 1 engie kill will flip your chance of winning from a position from 50/50 to like 70/30 or more if you can't get the same counterdamage, and it does quite often feel like luck whether or not you get those important engie snipes.

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The last balance patch buffed labs/bombers and had minor t1 tanks nerfs. So we are moving in the opposite direction.

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@sinforosa said in What if... Engineers were 2x hp, cost, buildpower:

The last balance patch buffed labs/bombers and had minor t1 tanks nerfs. So we are moving in the opposite direction.

I love those buffs.

However, as @archsimkat said it might need some counterplay. Bombers also more easily get multiple passes on expansion engineers so a hp buff does not shut down bombers.

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I mean it's debatable whether volatility in matchups is desirable or not—if I'm playing ladder, sure, it probably feels terrible when my expanding engie that just got to the 4 mex expo on open palms is sniped even though I guarded it and the next closest one is in my base; but, on the other hand, if defensive gameplay is more optimal then players may just sit defensively with their units and interact less with their opponent, making the matchup more boring to watch and potentially play, even though it may feel less bs or unfair. That's the thing with balance—it's very difficult to do and even small changes have huge effects on how the game as a whole plays out.

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Same question for T2 and T3 engineers.

What if we 2x them instead of T1?

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@advena said in What if... Engineers were 2x hp, cost, buildpower:

Same question for T2 and T3 engineers.

What if we 2x them instead of T1?

T2 and T3 engineers are not relevant to early game expansion.

But for consistency they should get the same relative buff

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Vanilla supcom had the mass fab at t1 and you could turtle off it easily, when far was brought in changed it to t2 so you had to expand because it was cheaper, and made for better games. If you make expending more expensive you risk for more turtling

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@veteranashe said in What if... Engineers were 2x hp, cost, buildpower:

Vanilla supcom had the mass fab at t1 and you could turtle off it easily, when far was brought in changed it to t2 so you had to expand because it was cheaper, and made for better games. If you make expending more expensive you risk for more turtling

At x2 more expensive I don't think you push people into turtling. However, you cannot afford to go on more than 2 expansion paths I think, and escorting the engineer and possibly fighting around it could increase (= interaction 👍 ).

But @archsimkat is correct that merely a hp buff could lead to this.