About Neroxis map generator...
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@Dragun101 said in About Neroxis map generator...:
how many folks would download MapGen Map from Vault if they WEREN'T map generator
no I personally don't think that's true.
I'm biased because I really like the map gen But a couple of the maps the mapgen made for me in the tourney are maps that I'm very interested to replay as-is.
In fact if anybody knows how I'd like to know.
here's the replay link : https://replay.faforever.com/13909802 it generates the right map. I just want to be able to host it.
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@tatsu It would be easy enough to test. Just take a mapgen map, give it a new name (something catchy like "Winter Duel"), don't upload it to the vault (because that's against the rules), but host a custom 1v1 on it, call the lobby something like "all welcome."
Do that with 5 mapgen maps and 5 popular custom 1v1 maps, and see how long it takes to find people willing to play. I'll bet there's no real difference, in terms of how long it takes to find an opponent, between the mapgen maps and the handmade maps.
And we already know that about 85% of TMM people would rather play basically any mapgen map than play another 2v2 on Forbidden Pass.
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@biass: I respect your and other people's work as mappers (hey I've made maps too, remember), and I think you have some excellent maps like Aalhaven and Choir and Flagellant that are certainly above mapgen quality, however I do think most mapgen maps stand above (on their own, without the factor of novelty) a lot of maps that are included in map pools. At least in terms of my personal preference.
Here's some examples from current map pool:
- amoor: i think this is equal quality with most 10x10 mapgen maps
- yemkey: this is weaker than all mapgen maps I've seen so far
- strife of titan: I prefer all 20x20 mapgens
- last oasis: i prefer most 10x10 mapgens
- the land wilderness: equal quality with mapgen
- darkfall: i prefer most 10x10 mapgens
- forgotten facilities: i prefer all 10x10 mapgens
- arctic refuge: i prefer all 10x10 mapgens (given this map would be pretty good if it wasn't for the middle section)
- seraphim glaciers: equal quality with most mapgens
- finn's revenge: i prefer all 10x10 mapgens
(with all I mean all that I've played so far, I'm sure there are some broken seeds out there)
On top of this some of the mapgen maps have been some of my favorite new maps (we grinded 1 map for about 4 games in a row with Arch yesterday) that I'd choose over maps like Twin Rivers anyday.
Maps like Open Palms, Rusting Iron Roundel and The Ganges Chasma are unrivalled by mapgen currently imo (in their respective mapsize categories).
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@tatsu there is a place to insert the name of a mapgen in the generate map ui. Place the name there and you will get out the same map.
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? Most map gen 10x10s are hill in middle with 2 mex and/or reclaim that you walk everything into and then 2 3-4 mex expansions u secure with pd then ignore in favor of giant smashfest in middle since map is wide open plain and if you win middle you can attack/defend everything.
I'd say basically every 10x10 you mentioned in that list has more diversity in gameplay than map gen.
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My problem with map gen is I don't want this:
I want this to be the average map from it:
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@FtXCommando :
Most recent 10x10 maps I played:
This one is okay, but has some issues with the triple mex expansions in the middle being too close so games become a bit too snowbally.
This one we enjoyed a lot. High mexcount forces more tech heavy games, but it remains aggressive, because of the short distance.
Very open and sparse map. Has a similar problem to the first one with the 3 mex expansions, but I think it works a bit better here.
Interesting map, I think this is probably the second best.Imo they are all pretty solid maps, and yeah, I would prefer all of them over Forgotten Facilities.
E: oh yeah the second example you posted was really an excellent map. Certainly better than the likes of Last Oasis etc.
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just chiming in to say that posting the pictures and why you do or don't like them really helps me.
also I hope to have the average changed from the hilly open by the next update this week
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Yes, a lot of the maps you posted have the same issue of everything being focused on essentially middle. The map gen seems to be predisposed to putting impassable stuff around the sides in maps. This can be fine in 5x5 (hard to make 5x5 gameplay not revolve around efficient engagements in X location even in authored maps, and adding even just some small impassable terrain can drastically change how a map functions) or 20x20 (lots of extra room for error in terrain with it being 4x the size of 10x10, not to mention all in spam is way harder to abuse). But I think almost every 10x10 in the tournament and all the ones you posted barring the 2nd revolve around the same sort of walk mid with spam game plan.
TLDR: make it harder to directly access opponent base thru mid, make the externalities of maps more valuable.
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I agree, they are quite uniform designs. I'm just saying that I prefer them in isolation over many ladder maps. Most of the 10x10 do the Standing Stones kind of gameplay really well (whatever happened to that map btw), and there are also some real gems occassionally.
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Yes, they revolve around the same concept but so do most of the generic hand crafted ladder maps, I think that right now MapGen maps are good enough (probably 3.5 score on average in terms of gameplay + Variety) and occasionally we get a really good one. On the other hand I have to agree with Biass as well, the aesthetics have come a long way but we are not there yet ( What I mean is that hand crafted maps just look better and it will stay like this probably, there is nothing wrong with it). I can tell you right now that when I will be able to come back to FAF hopefully soon I am really eager to un rust on MapGen maps instead of playing the same decent map out of the 75 ish we have right now over and over again.
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@Tagada said in About Neroxis map generator...:
Yes, they revolve around the same concept but so do most of the generic hand crafted ladder maps,
I put a third of the maps in the 10x10 pool in the current ladder in "send acu with spam and snowball into win" category. And a lot of those still play with the concept and allow some unusual plays ie Darkfall with massive e reclaim allowing for quite a lot of upgrade rushes. I've also seen plenty of Arctic Refuge games that do not get decided by a failure in mid but rather intense side raids delaying expansions and tree reclaim.
Right now these maps play like it's land wilderness with slight terrain variation.
@Tagada said in About Neroxis map generator...:
I think that right now MapGen maps are good enough (probably 3.5 score on average in terms of gameplay + Variety) and occasionally we get a really good one.
Playing hollow once is ok. Playing hollow 20 times in a row is not.
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The beauty of map gen is that even if the map is similar concept wise it will still play out differently so you don't get to play Hollow 20 times in a row.
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I wish the players in the tournament knew that.
If anything it's playing a map with pure constant land spam meta that is more likely to play differently as you can build upon the expectations of meta instead of "damn I spawned in, lemme just do the tactic that I can think on impulse will work when I see wide open map with easy access to the enemy and all expansions on the map"
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@tatsu said in About Neroxis map generator...:
here's the replay link : https://replay.faforever.com/13909802 it generates the right map. I just want to be able to host it.
@tatsu
Flying engi is this working as intended ?)
@Sheikah take a look as well) -
Alright I was able to get a version that should increase the variation of the maps a bit. So if you end up playing it let me know how it goes.
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@arma473 said in About Neroxis map generator...:
I'll bet there's no real difference, in terms of how long it takes to find an opponent, between the mapgen maps and the handmade maps.
that's not true. there's a big difference and that's that there's a big blue dice instead of the map preview picture.
this will disfavor the mapgen in such an experiment. We would need for the preview to show up for others in the game list first, for this to have good results.
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@Sheikah said in About Neroxis map generator...:
@tatsu there is a place to insert the name of a mapgen in the generate map ui.
here?
when I fill that field in and hit generate I get this :
doesn't matter what value I put.
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the name should be a generated map name like neroxis_map_generator_1.3.5_ie5pi2ly4cy44_aiea_
if you put that in do you get the error?
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(yes neroxis_map_generator_1.3.5_ie5pi2ly4cy44_aiea_ works for me)
oh ok I didn't understand that that's how it worked. but then how can I copy a name? FAF doesn't allow copying from any of the places it shows up after the fact
