Cybran Frigates
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Wtf are you and tex talking about, the entire game is designed around the fact that factions are not the same and have defined strengh and weaknesses ?? Are you saying the existence of the aurora is bad game design ?
No I mean that it's bad design for Cybran to only be relevant if it's on a map where frigates are relevant. Auroras with good micro can be relevant on maps regardless of if their hover is useful even though they do have some significant weaknesses but Aeon has the longest range gun com to help offset some of their weaknesses. Of course there are maps that favor different factions and that's fine and expected, but imo it's a bit extreme if it's all around a single specific unit.
That being said, I do generally agree with what you said.
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If you think that Cybran is only relevant on maps where frigates are relevant then ...
Anyways, back to the topic : Cybran frigate is the best and it's intended that way, they have weak t2 stage, no hover, their t3 is ok, low hp Mexes. UEF on the other hand has weak t1 navy stage, ok t2 stage with destro that's good if micro'ed and an amazing cruiser (It can get though a shit ton of TMD's compared to Sera one) + shield boat which basically defeats any potential for enemy to use torp bombers (This is a huuuge advantage). Their t3 navy is the best with BC destroying all destroyers with ease and loosing only to Aeon t3 battlships. And these are just the things considering only navy.
Let's take a look at a classic t1 navy spam map : Roanoke
What advantages does UEF have over Cybran? Better intie, better arty for drops (6 lobo's 1 shot Cybran t2 pgen/t2 mex) while medusa are the worst arties for drops. They have a gunships that can drop units around which allows you to re - take small islands in the mid game, they have equal or better t2 navy depending on map (how much dmg can UEF cruiser do) and better t3 navy especially in early t3 stage with their BC's. You have Janus to kill all of enemies BP in the base once you win air (They are also equaly strong as corsairs vs big structures like Pgens and factories if micro'ed correctly). They also have access to TML on ACU which is an amazing upgrade for this map.
Cybran : Better frigate, wagners, corsairs, torpedo + stealth ACU, Stealth boats + nice t2 navy with stealth combo forcing 5 mass/ s scout stream in the mid game.
On another note I did some number crunching and testing to see how strong Cybran frigate really is compared to others. In order to equalize the difference as UEF you need to get 16 frigates for every 15 that Cybran has. In The early - mid game that means assisting with 2-3 more engies which drains 2.5-3.75 mass/ sec which means you need to have 2 more mexes then your opponent which you should be able to achieve with better inties by grabbing more small islands.
Such "imbalances" such as these only matter if you play exactly the same as your opponent, don't use any of the other available strategies and don't use other of your Faction's advantages. Not to even mention the fact that due bad eco control most games have significant difference in total mass of players. Much larger then the 350 mass advantage for Cybran in the early navy stage (7 cybran frigates vs 7.5 UEF frigates). -
Just for A fact, Tex try to play other fractions instead only UEF, that seems so funny when u crying how good is cybrans units, but they was nerfed after 2017 and now is just a unplayable fraction like it was with aeons in 2018-2019.The proposal to further strengthen the Uef over cybran, this is just clownery, and not a statement of balance.
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cybran frigate needs a slight aa tracking nerf and thats it, you cant swarm them with t1 bombers like all the other races frigates cause they so good vs air, the reason they strong is cause cybrans only unique naval stuff is semi useless t2 stealth boat. the super broken stealth field from t3 sonar and the cruisers are supposed to carry t2 gunships. If anyone ever used wagners or bricks in the water which they dont, you would see they are torpedo sponges beyond belief and their dps adds up. ps brick nerf with only 7.5k hp broken, the cybran already have no mobile shields and the brick is supposed to be a BRICK in the water and out
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@Auricocorico
"That is bad game design IMO to have a faction strong on some maps and weak on others, even more so when you are laddering into a blind map."
So it's not a problem per se that certain factions have much bigger advantages on some maps than others, it's that you don't have the ability to pick your faction AFTER you see what map you will be playing on ladder (edit: or veto any maps...). If we could have the map shown after the match is made, and then you have 10 seconds to confirm/change your faction choice(s) I think this wouldn't be an issue since this game is not near as much like SC2 where people generally just play a single faction. -
@BIG-BENNIS-MAGIC
I don't think the firing cycle has much to do with it because we are talking about 85 damage shots for uef, vs ~2000 hp frigates, so the percentage overkill is tiny compared to say t3 tanks. uef could theoretically even gain from a slower firing cycle because the higher alpha damage could help knock out enemy units faster, just like percies vs bricks. I do think the firing cycle gives cybran an advantage in killing enemy engineers around naval factories, though.Edit: It's also not totally clear whether a slower firing cycle leads to less or more "overkill." In many land battles, the uef gun acu will have less overkill when facing t1 arty (except uef arty) because the slower firing cycle means it won't fire a waste shot at a unit that was already about to die from the previous shot, while an aeon gun acu will often shoot 3 times at 200 hp units that would have died from just 2 attacks, but it didnt' retarget since the 2nd projectile hadn't hit yet. So the projectile speed and distance matters too.
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And against hover
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The real example of bad game design is that seraphim gets the 2nd best frigate, best destroyer, zthuees, yenzyne, hover flak, missile cruiser with flak, best transport, nothas, and TML ACU. This makes it the obvious best choice on almost any 20x20 map or map with water.
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Why don’t you just pick sera Thomas
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the seraphim t1 sub and destroyer are buffed because they have no t2 anti sub, the t3 sub is a turd for its price if you know how to counter it, i have never seen anyone use the t3 shield to shield the t3 subs which in theory would make them broken for the price combo, the uef frigate and destroyer are bad because if you get shield boats they become super beefy. the golden navy is cybran frigate, seraphim t1 sub, uef shield boat, cybran t2 subkillers, aeon t2 destroyer, seraphim t2 cruiser, seraphim t3 subs and the uef battleships and battlecruisers, nerfing everything that each race specalizes in because people dont understand unit counters is dumb
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Uef is best cruiser
No
Sera is best cruiser
It's like people disagree on things
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@Tagada said in Cybran Frigates:
they have better t2 navy and god forbid if it goes to t3 (unlikely).
Not sure why you're suggesting uef rapes cybran in the t3 navy stage
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Because on maps that are played on ladder (POR, Roanoke, Pizza) if you loose ground in the ocean you loose a lot of mexes and map control. Considering that an UEF t3 navy switch is extremely deadly with their BC + Shield boat combo that absolutely desrroys any t2 navy extremely efficently forcing enemy to either give up ground or take unfavourable trades. So if both UEF and Cybran switch to t3 at similar timings UEF gets huge tempo advantage with its BC's and once 2-3 are out and cybran gets their BS's to the front finally you switch to summit production without having to yield so much territory while still have more map control and more income. Another thing is that UEF can easily snipe cybran cruisers with BC's and kill cybran navy with torps.
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cybran bs's are only 1k mass more expensive than a bc and have only 1 less speed, so no you don't get 2-3 neptunes on the frontlines before the cybran has its first bs arrive. If you don't think this is true then the same argument can be used for the summit switch since summits are painfully slow and the initial investment is way higher. Also you should factor in how obese barracuda's are vs uef in early t3 stage since you often don't have the luxury to build coopers if you're rushing t3 navy. It's pretty easy to suicide some barracuda's in to kill early shieldboats before a critical clump of them is on the field. Sniping cruisers with bc's shouldn't really be a thing if you play it properly and keep don't charge your cruiser in with the rest of your navy.
All in all bc's can be absolutely obese, mostly vs t2 navy, in a well done push but aren't great vs bs's barracuda's and on open enough maps they can get easily swarmed by t1/t2 navy if ur not paying attention properly (i've seen enough sadboy thau bc pushes). I'm not saying UEF is weak or some shit, i value their navy higher than cybran navy, but to say that cybran gets absolutely clapped by them in the t3 stage is just completely wrong.
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You are right and I used wrong wording there, I edited my post.
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buffing the uef frigate would be game breaking in combination with uefs shield boat and late game t3 ships / hover units
