1v1 Ladder intro week

Deribus

I came back to 1v1 ladder yesterday after 7 months of not playing it, and I forgot just how intimidating getting into it can be. And I have just over 1,000 1v1 games, I can't imagine how rough it is for people coming from customs.

One of the biggest problems for me is build orders. In 1v1 build orders are immensely important, especially in "non standard" maps like Canis River, where you start with 6 mexes and no hydro. I could look up some high rated games and see what those people are doing, but I currently have 14 maps in my ladder pool. Even if I had perfect memory I'd need to look up 14 different replays to see what typical build orders are. That's an unreasonable request for a high-rated global player who might start with a similar ladder pool size.

The second big problem is the sheer size of the pool makes it difficult to learn from your mistakes. Let's reuse the Canis River example. Maybe in one of my games I was unable to defend the mexes in the top right corner and kept letting units leak through. So at the end of the match I go "okay, next game invest in some PD or a dedicated factory going in that direction". Except the likelihood that Canis is even in my next 5 maps is 30%. I'll probably forget the mistakes I made by the time I have an opportunity to try a new strategy or approach.

So, I'd like to propose a 1v1 Ladder Intro Week with the goal of making it less intimidating for people new to 1v1 ladder to try it out.

Drastically reduce the ladder pool size. I suggest 3 maps, potentially across all ratings. That way you can reasonably look at build orders ahead of time and have opportunities to adjust strategy on the same map.
Have introductory events preceding the intro week. Something to get people excited and show that playing 1v1 is not that scary. Some ideas
- A BO3 tournament on those same 3 maps, that way there's a wealth of replays available for build orders and potential strategies
- A cast game on each of those maps, for the same reason
- Maybe Community Game Night can do something, either playing a team game on a 1v1 map so at least the map is familiar, or some other wild idea

Yeah a mere 3 maps might feel boring for the existing 1v1 player base, but I hope they can put it with it for a week in exchange for an injection of new players.

nine2

The thing that stops me playing ladder is no rating decay... I took a break for a few years and when I do finally play I get matched against someone too good and just get crushed. It's very hard to pick it up again knowing that's what will happen.

nalschool_lock

Agreed.
I have played only 7 1v1 games so far (including global 1v1s and ladder 1v1s) and my experience was that I either get matched up against a regular 1v1 player then get steamrolled or I get matched up against a brand new player that doesn't even know to build a factory first or what reclaim is. I am still not yet to the point where I can determine what the best stuff to build at first and in what order for a specific map, which is a major detriment to my performance in 1v1s if it all really boils down to build order importance.

Another thing: 20x20 maps are a major pain to deal with in a 1v1 because of the sheer amount of map to keep track of. If it were a teamgame then 20x20 would be be more tolerable because you have teammates watching the other sides of the map for you which is why 1v1s on large maps are more tiring than team games on the same map.
If we are limiting the pool to 3 maps I would suggest maybe 2 5x5 maps (Theta Passage and Winter Duel seem like a good fit to me) and one 10x10 map. (Open Palms?)

If the regulars don't like the map pool they can go host their own custom games.

waffelzNoob

If your opponent has the same rating as you, you're equally skilled roughly speaking. If they have build orders and you don't, you must have an edge over them elsewhere.

@Deribus said in 1v1 Ladder intro week:

The second big problem is the sheer size of the pool makes it difficult to learn from your mistakes. Let's reuse the Canis River example. Maybe in one of my games I was unable to defend the mexes in the top right corner and kept letting units leak through. So at the end of the match I go "okay, next game invest in some PD or a dedicated factory going in that direction". Except the likelihood that Canis is even in my next 5 maps is 30%. I'll probably forget the mistakes I made by the time I have an opportunity to try a new strategy or approach.

I understand the difficulty with learning from your mistakes because it can take a while to get the same map again. It worked for me back when I started grinding ladder because I played a ton, but if you don't that's not really feasible for you. Because of this the ladder team has already changed up the way maps are rotated out of the ladder pool, see https://forum.faforever.com/post/69569. The main takeaway is that some maps will be in the pool for months straight, giving you plenty of time to get accustomed to them, and greatly rewarding those who put a little time into practicing them beforehand.

The truth is, 1v1 will always be scary to jump into if you're not used to it. It was scary to me at first, then in 2018-2020 it wasn't, and now it's a little scary again because I don't play 1v1 much anymore. I'm scared of playing 1v1s in other games too because I'm just not used to it, even if I know the maps (or even if maps are always the same - chess, rocket league, elden ring). You'll just have to bite the bullet, multiple times, until you're used to it.

I think introducing a ladder intro week is an upside for players joining ladder, but a downside for players already active in ladder. Instead of that, why not organise a monthly event where players host & join 1v1s using ladder maps? It doesn't infringe on the current ladder playerbase and still gets you your games. Alternatively, just ask people to 1v1 you on a ladder map in a custom game. I'm sure players from the Dojo discord (https://forum.faforever.com/post/69852) would be interested in participating in such events.

Edit: you won 5/6 of your ladder games, with the other being a draw. The build order problem can't be that bad

wilson_

This is basically what happens on a regular basis within the Dojo.

I am part of the trainer team coaching the newbies (<1k global), and they ask me every month how to approach map xyz from any pool on ladder or tmm. We talk them through, play them once or twice, and the rest of the month, they find other trainees to pracc with in unranked custom games asking for replay reviews afterwards.

This makes for a 70+% Dojo win rate in the u1100 tournament series, for instance.

Skrat

I am against reducing ladder pool even on low ratings. And here's why

When I was in the training team, many players with low ratings whom I trained (up to 1000) complained about the boring, small map pool. (This was at a time when it had fewer maps than it does now and most of them are 5x5). We have a lot of players with low ratings who play 50-100 games per month and even more. They won't be interested in playing so many games on the same maps.
A variety of maps teach us different gameplay, which is what helps us increase our skill. For example, playing on Daroza gave me an understanding of how to play on maps with 200k+ reclaim. Playing Seraphim Glaciers learn me how to build a lot of transporters, play with a combination of navy and air, etc . I would never play better if I played 3 of the same maps 20 times a month.
Ladderplay should not be built around memorizing BO. When I watch 1x1 replays, I often see bad BO even from 2k players, simply because they haven't played for a long time or got something wrong. But due to the good reaction to their mistakes, they correct the situation.
There is no universal BO that will work in every game. You can scroll through all the stones, calculating so that you ideally have enough mass for a quick t2 rush, but the enemy decides to start with the first 3 labs or 1 bomber and all your plans will collapse. This does not mean that you have lost. The opponent also made a bad build for himself to ruin yours. You just can't be prepared for everything. Or vice versa. For example, if you make a defense against everything, and the opponent makes only engineers, then your opponent will have the advantage, since he did not waste mass and did not lose potential BP to protect engineers.

In my understanding, to increase your 1x1 game level, you need:

be able to react quickly to non-standard actions of the opponent
be able to quickly analyze the map on which you are playing (not to do BO, with a plan for each engineer for 10 minutes, but to see on the map the key points for which you need to fight, understand where you need to make a drop and how much energy you will need based on the number of mass extractors and reclaim)
know the specifics of the factions and be able to use them (if you don't play very often, I advise you to play only for 1 faction)
understand how the economy works
understand exactly which units and buildings you need to win, don't waste a mass on what you don't need.

And to improve these skills, you just need to play more and analyze your games, ideally with a trainer who can also spot something that you don't see. Even a perfectly memorized BO Tagada won't help you if you don't understand what to do next. You may be able to beat your opponent's rating on this score and even score a +100 rating. But then you'll start losing anyway, because you don't understand other aspects.

What solution do I see? It would be great if someone with a high rating would do a brief review of the maps on the day of the release of the new map pool. He would explain the key points for attack and defense on the map, where it is better for the ACU to go, and tell the strengths of the factions for a particular map. 2-3 minutes is enough for each map.

Grimplex

Ok time for me to rant.

I do believe that having something extra to help new players would be good but I think that this idea that has slowly been growing that 1v1's are heavily build order focused is completely wrong. The matchmaker team has already started making changes in the map pool which will allow more overlap between low / high rated players and some repeating classics to allow constant growth for newer players on these maps although it may take a bit of time for the effects to become obvious. Something that completely goes against this is the current idea that people should just watch a replay for 1 min and copy/paste the starting build order of some high rank player to somehow make the map playable. There should be more of a focus on players learning solid basics such as understanding general map layouts and how to craft simple build orders because this is what will allow players to be the most consistent is their gameplay and wins. When someone loses they should not just look at the mistakes on that map but what caused those mistakes. If you let units constantly leak through then it should not just be about what building is missing in your opening but what your plan was in general. Did you send all your units the other way? If so does losing stuff on the other side matter if you managed to do more damage on the other side? Or were you too zoomed in throughout the game to notice units slipping by? FAF is much more varied in map layouts compared to other games but that does not mean that you should be stuck playing the same maps over, in fact I believe players should be able to get a taste of varying maps as they improve which the map pool rating brackets currently do since there is so much to learn that 3 or so maps cannot teach you.

Currently, you could look at some random 1v1 replays of even 1800 players and see them stall instantly at the start of the game because they didn't have time to watch a build order for the 20 new maps or they just forgot their build order after playing a map again after 3-4 months because of how the map pool rotates. This problem mainly comes from the old map pool which is currently undergoing a change and the mindset that you can just watch a build order once for the rest of the pool and never actually learn how to start on a map. I feel like the majority of this issue has come around from people thinking that their opponent has studied some build order because they got lucky and managed to get a good start even though they never actually followed a build order and then deciding they should do that too causing their opponent to think the same the next game since someone might tell them the other guy had a build order. The reason I say this is because I myself have very rarely made or used build orders outside of tourneys since I know the basic foundations for how to craft a good opening and it is what allows me to be better than most on mapgen even and have an advantage at the start even though mapgen is a 'no build order map'. Even when looking at replays of others which I have done a lot I can see that many people do not have build orders or at least mess them up very often and just relying on your own knowledge is much better and consistent in the long run. On the other hand, strategies or the most optimal play in a certain scenario can be quiet confusing and different players may have different opinions on what the best thing to do is so it is important for players to be able to have access to the reasoning behind players actions and replays to see how players act depending on the opening / midgame.

Players who do make build orders will naturally increase in rating and reach some sort of their own wall. And I believe this will only hinder their future growth as they now have a great start (not their own skill) and then manage to lose it all out over the rest of the game. This type of growth can just lead to more frustration and inability to find what you actually did wrong since you don't know what the build order actually sets up for. I think this a very big reason that returning players like Deribus find it hard since you just match into some guy who is nothing like the same rating 7 months ago and maybe he does have some build order but because Deribus has not played for a long time he may be playing like a 1100 against a 1400 who also has a better opening and he gets rolled.

Anyway, enough yapping. As I said at the start of this rant I believe new players or in this case especially, returning players(I believe there is a decent amount of players who would play ladder if they had a newer"ish" experience) should both have some change, maybe similar to in nature to what Deribus has put or maybe something completely different to allow players to get a better feeling for the game but for different reasons. I believe a good start would be to follow along with what the matchmaker team has done and put a focus on consistent growth over just blindly following those of higher rating and show / teach new players how to create openings themselves. I remember making a "Build Order list" with Harzer long ago that not only gave players an opening but explained the map in some detail and what strategies players could do on it which I think would be useful if expanded on in new guides that could take any ladder map as an example and give a good players insights of what the map is about and what key features they are looking at when experimenting themselves. Something similar to this could be what Skrat has put forward with players reviewing maps on a map pools release which could be some collaboration between trainer and matchmaker team.

I would not mind talking about these ideas in more detail on discord if anyone is interested since I believe it would be a good start to some change.

FtXCommando

The problem is that 2-3 minutes across the matchmakers very quickly scales into a 45 minute lecture that just devolves to the same problem of not “knowing” which 2-3 minutes segment of information to take into account. For this to be practical you would just need to adjust the load in screen for various maps to define them in a uniform way.

When a general build goes air (2nd-3rd-4th)
Two stages the map is expected to end on (t1 navy, t2 air, t1 land, whatever)
Level of reclaim

I don’t believe you need to have some defined build on how to handle a 6 mex start, this is just something you need to figure out how to balance. This is no different than learning the basic bo’s and even applying those basic bo’s instead of trying to do something fancy on these maps will still do you fine. If we want to remove the early game resource optimization, we should just have people spawn with prebuilt bases instead.

Another problem is also then that map gen is included in pools all the time so any of these solutions will by default not apply to the entire pool.

Grimplex

Most things I mentioned are just a bare minimum START to some sort of change in ladder but getting people to think about it is good. Even if nothing really comes of it, if public perception is slowly moving away from build order bias it is a good start for me.

I don't really think mapgen should be a promoted much in ladder since it is just different from the rest of the maps but I don' think it would be a problem to be included in ladder since I see it as testing ground for people to practice their ability at crafting some sort of plan / opening even if it does not really work well as training since you can't really compare on a map nobody else has played.