Add Non-Mapgen Maps to 3v3 Matchmaker
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@Hue-Janus Care to elaborate why you think that?
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@Sheppy
I'm fine with the current state of tmm as it is.
It's not perferct, but I like mapgen and prefer to play mapgen over original maps.
Right now there is a way to opt out of original maps and it works for me. If we mix original maps into the pool, there would be no way to opt out.
Also I'd like to play 4v4 mapgen too, but there original maps in that pool, so I just avoid it (actually as I have just checked, there is 1 mapgen for 7 other maps).PS to counter one of the most common arguements that would follow: no, I don't wanna play custom mapgen the same as you don't wanna play original maps in custom games
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While I prefer mapgen (if had to choose between mapgen or curated), I dislike how the majority of mapgen maps seem to be naval focused. Since there was a 'mapgen only' day it'd be nice if there could be an experimentation such as. a weekend where you play a mix of mapgen and curated maps, or alternatively since mapgen is a small % chance in 4v4 make a curated map a small % chance in 3v3. However I expect such suggestions would require dev time and time to come up with a curated list, in addition to upsetting people who prefer 100% mapgen, so probably not worth the effort (and yes I'm aware 4v4 is an option if I want a break from mapgen; I prefer 3v3 to 4v4 though so my personal solution to mapgen generating naval maps so often was to just switch from UEF main to Cybran main, as being UEF on navy and going up against seraphim was too painful to keep doing).
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100% mapgen in 3v3 is very nice. The fact that the options for these mapgens cant be adjusted is a disaster. I have never seen a good mapgen in there. Maybe something "ok", but never good. If the "last"-option would get implemented there, it would be 10x better
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i like how half your 3v3 map suggestions are unplayable for 3v3 games
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they're not unplayable, just very different from the standard, which is nice sometimes imo
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@Nuggets said in Add Non-Mapgen Maps to 3v3 Matchmaker:
100% mapgen in 3v3 is very nice. The fact that the options for these mapgens cant be adjusted is a disaster. I have never seen a good mapgen in there. Maybe something "ok", but never good. If the "last"-option would get implemented there, it would be 10x better
What? 100% Mapgen is Nice but you have never seen a good map? (I mean me neither really, but why you like mapgen then??)
@TheWeakie said in Add Non-Mapgen Maps to 3v3 Matchmaker:
i like how half your 3v3 map suggestions are unplayable for 3v3 games
I don't care about any single map, if you think one is bad or have better ones, just say it. I put these maps as in suggestions specifically because they are very different from the average mapgen map.
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The 3v3 map queue was intentionally made map-gen only from the start. There's in my opinion an advantage for players to feel a 'clean slate' each game. Where it feels that you, your allies and your enemies all see the map for the first time. This generates the feeling of a leveled playing field. Since nobody could've prepped an oddly specific build for that map. Users that are better and faster at analyzing the generated map will naturally gain more rating. There's also no repeating maps, even though you'd play some the same way if you'd be able to identify the ideal strategy in time.
It took a lot of discussion to get the map-gen only queue in. It will likely take a similar amount of discussion to get it 'out'. I personally think we should keep it. It's unique. It's in my opinion a good feature of our service. Why would we remove such a feature by making it the same as the other queues?
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@Sheppy said in Add Non-Mapgen Maps to 3v3 Matchmaker:
@Nuggets said in Add Non-Mapgen Maps to 3v3 Matchmaker:
100% mapgen in 3v3 is very nice. The fact that the options for these mapgens cant be adjusted is a disaster. I have never seen a good mapgen in there. Maybe something "ok", but never good. If the "last"-option would get implemented there, it would be 10x better
What? 100% Mapgen is Nice but you have never seen a good map? (I mean me neither really, but why you like mapgen then??)
Correct. I still like mapgen because there are good settings (as seen in custom hosted games). These settings just dont exist in tmm (for some unknown reason - well, not completly unknown, its more of a technical limitation and i think nobody asked / bothered to change this)
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Trainer experience:
On MapGens my trainees (I'd say about 80%) are less likely to get depressed or to blame the cirumstances. On the majority of other maps they usually complain either about specific buildorders or about their teammates if they don't know the map meta. Basically what Jip explained already in detail. -
If people really like mapgen and think the maps are actually more than just different colors of 4 different map-types then nothing needs to change.
I think it's bad though and from my recent experience, I don't think I'm the only one, but then again, that is why I made a suggestion, in the Suggestion forum.
Like I said, I don't understand why it has to be an all or nothing thing, if there are mixed opinions, then I suggest there should be mixed pools. If I'm truly the one here who doesn't like the 3v3 maps, but likes to play 3v3 TMM, then I guess nothing is to be done.Since nobody could've prepped an oddly specific build for that map
I think that's a bit of cope though, because mapgen maps are not sufficiently different. You can prep 4 BOs and you got 99% 3v3 of mapgen maps covered.
Regarding what people said on stream about the Dark Heart, let me reiterate, I specifically selected these maps to be different from the average mapgen - and TDH certainly is (left vs right)
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@Sheppy said in Add Non-Mapgen Maps to 3v3 Matchmaker:
I think that's a bit of cope though, because mapgen maps are not sufficiently different. You can prep 4 BOs and you got 99% 3v3 of mapgen maps covered.
Besides what Sheppy said, complaining about BOs is cope in general because there are 2 people on faf with BOs outside of setons and neither of them play anymore
And if they’re complaining about seeing a curated map for the first time and not wanting to play it "because others have a few games more experience" then by their logic they shouldn't have wanted to start playing faf because others have been at it for years... It's a mentality I really don't understand -
@waffelzNoob said in Add Non-Mapgen Maps to 3v3 Matchmaker:
@Sheppy said in Add Non-Mapgen Maps to 3v3 Matchmaker:
I think that's a bit of cope though, because mapgen maps are not sufficiently different. You can prep 4 BOs and you got 99% 3v3 of mapgen maps covered.
Besides what Sheppy said, complaining about BOs is cope in general because there are 2 people on faf with BOs outside of setons and neither of them play anymore
And if they’re complaining about seeing a curated map for the first time and not wanting to play it "because others have a few games more experience" then by their logic they shouldn't have wanted to start playing faf because others have been at it for years... It's a mentality I really don't understandYou (WaffelzNoob, and all other high rated, 2k+ players) likely have a higher game sense in general. That you can decipher that all the maps look alike is great. Even better if you can do it in the first 20 seconds when your factory is building. It shows your game sense is top notch. Chances are that you'll excel in any RTS game if you invest a reasonable amount of time. However, not everyone has either the game sense and/or the time to learn that game sense. If they have the mental capacity to learn it at all.
In my point of view you are totally not representative of the average player. The average player has a lot less game sense. They just play the game for... the game. Robots go boom. In my point of view they just want to feel a fair chance to win. And the less variables that make it feel unfair, the better. This is what @Sladow-Noob is hinting at. And that's what map gen is great at. Which is why we have a map gen only queue.
That the queue can be more polished I agree with. There's a lot of facets of FAForever that can be more polished
. But introducing non-map gen maps is in my opinion not the answer. And introducing '15%' non map-gen maps is not the answer either. The uniqueness about the queue is that it is only map-gen. -
I'm not comparing myself to lower rated players, I'm comparing lower rated players with experience on map x vs lower rated players who have never seen map x. Even if I'm playing a map for the first time versus someone who plays it frequently, I'm at a disadvantage. Just have a look at my BO in my first actual attempt at a game on Amoor:
https://replay.faforever.com/23837156 (minute 5 3.8k score, 6 land facs, 17 tanks)
and then my second BO on Amoor:
https://replay.faforever.com/23837606 (minute 5 4.8k score, 7 land facs, 23 tanks)
And it felt good playing it a second time. The first time I played against someone way more experienced and got my ass kicked, but learned from it.I get that not everyone wants to have this same experience, but it is intended to be a competitive matchmaker, so that's kind of the experience they signed up for.
Also to loop back to Sheppy's point, mapgen openings definitely have a pattern to them and so people who religiously play 3v3 TMM have an advantage over those who are new. In addition to this, toxicity definitely still exists towards players who misinterpreted the map and their role in the game. Very sad example: returning pro player Crazed plays his first mapgen game, hasn't been on faf since https://replay.faforever.com/24511266
And finally, Sladow's post (which is what promped me to make my post) mentioned trainees, which are by definition players who wish to learn and improve.In any case I do agree it's kind of "too late" to change 3v3 queue to contain man-made maps because it would upset a lot of players who want to play just mapgen
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