Restructure air by delaying tech 3 air

I completely agree with this and though I do like some suggestions, I'd like to offer my own, as well.


Why not just reduce how effective ASF are in terms of their damage per second/shot?
Changing the unit, itself, rather than the T3 air stage, overall.

There have been other posts about how oppressive ASF are as they make all previous air stages obsolete.
It's also just an absurd play style.
How to counter an ASF swarm? Build more ASF.
This just leads to a stagnant method of air combat.
One unit to counter them all.

The reason they are so strong is because of their DPS. For example, one ASF can three-shot a T2 gunship.
Doesn't sound like a big deal, but when ASF are built in large numbers;
Well, it doesn't take long for 2 or 3 ASF to wipe out a small group of gunships.

So, why not just globally reduce the damage of ASF from 400 DPS, down to 350 or 300, or even less?
Granted, this will offset the balance of Air Experimentals and other T3 air units like Strats and Gunships;
but, it will at least allow earlier air interceptors, fighters, and all other air units to be more effective.
This way, at least T1 and T2 air would stand a slightly better chance at making an impact on a game,
barring early snipes.


In land and navy, T1 and T2 units are still a great counter to higher tech units.
We can see this in action with Frigates - they're viable throughout all tech levels of navy.

Yet, there is no T1 or T2 air unit that can counter the ASF, realistically.
Modify the oppressive unit, not the entire air stage it dominates in.


~ Stryker

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

@deribus said in Restructure air by delaying tech 3 air:

A static T1 and T2 AA projectile speed buff would also be good. That way you have at least some options if you're at T3 and have a strat doing passes.

Mobile flak's main weakness is its projectile speed. Its DPS/mass is so rediculously high compared to its static counterpart that if you buffed its projectile speed enough to reliably hit strats there would be no reason to ever build static flak.

T1 aa spam is one of the best solutions to fight away strats if you do not have access to sams. T2 can’t be buffed anymore or it would instantly wipe out gunships, ints, etc. I have had so many games where I accidentally fly over 1 flack and instantaneously my air advantage is gone, game over.

I can't immediately think of a big downside to buffing inties, but think we should consider going further than some suggestions here - e.g. if they were buffed to both be .1 speed faster than strats (which could also be done by nerfing strat speed), and to trade mass efficiently with ASFs (this could be achieved by nerfing ASF damage rather than buffing intie damage), would it be a bad thing? (It might be, I'm just speculating) - The main thing to balance them being oppressive is they have poor fuel and die really easiliy to any flak or SAMs, so I don't see them as being as oppressive as ASFs, and there's still a clear incentive to get T3 air and asfs since asfs don't die easily to ground AA.

It could therefore turn air fights from a 1 unit approach to a 2 unit approach, as well as greatly reducing the power of a team getting t3 air ahead of the other team. It introduces an alternative comeback mechanic if you lose air - i.e. you just build loads of inties and try to fight near your own AA. It also makes air staging more interesting.

While a comparison was made earlier about T3 land (e.g. titans) vs T1 land, Navy already sets a precedent for a T1 unit being useful into the T3 stage - frigates can trade mass efficiently with later tech naval units if there's enough space for them.

I'd also forgotten about the SAM semi-bug fix that buffed them so am happy with the changes proposed to that.

Buffing mobile flak does nothing because proper micro with corsair/notha/aeon gunship instakills them. Again, why are people talking about ints losing to asf when land t1 loses to land t3 harder and faster than ints lose to asf? You essentially can never kill a titan with t1 spam if you micro it properly.

Make strats slower than ints and you never make them in game again, would be a gigantic noobtrap unit which only has a purpose of sniping aa with their aoe around t4s. The idea of making ints trade mass efficiently against asf is even funnier, now you have literally zero reason to ever even go t3 air.

Some of these changes sound like you guys just want to remove air from the game, honestly.

I’d actually say buffing mobile flak speed would be the healthiest thing so that it’s possible to actually micro them and dodge some of the high alpha t2 air units and get to areas they need to be faster. I don’t really see a problem with the damage output of flak itself so much as how easy it is to kill it and force it out of position.

How about this as a quick proposal for people that think early strats are a problem:

  • Reduce all strat damage to variants of 2600-2800.

  • Buff t2 mex hp to 3000 for all factions (I’m fine with going so far as to revert the hp changes in general but whatever)

  • Make mass storages explosive that do 100 damage

  • Now strats one shot ringed t2 mexes and leave unringed ones alive.

  • Also teach people to shield core mexes that let strat aoe hit 2 at once

  • Faction variability comes into play based on how many storages need to be around a mex in order for it to be 1 shot (more aoe, need more storages)

All the complaints about ASF vs int and t2 bombers are baseless in game. Has anybody actually attempted to use air the way you make a land push viable in this game or do they make 1-2 factories of air spam, get killed by 1 factory of asf spam, and then complain asf are OP?

When I want a t2 land push to work, I have 6-8 factories of t2 spam. I do the same with janus spam. I would have 10-12 factories of int spam to do the same, just as t1 spam.

Have people ever watched a ladder game? People don’t get 5 asf and charge it in, because 100-200 ints are on the map and they will instantly kill any asf group below 15 at least.

My first dumb thought was "if you delay t3 air too long, the air slot would be bored from having nothing to do". But nvm that.

Decreasing the amount of asf on the field would help land anti air, and also sim speed amusingly. It also helps air exps a bit I think. Sounds reasonable. Build time change seems the easiest to justify. Power adjacency is really obese too. Hq change also slows rush down.

If t3 air rush is slower, the time delay for t3 land aa is less. Having a choice to sacrifice some advantage to get quicker t3 land for maa could help land slots have more agency. Not sure what type of time delay you want between t3 air and quick t3 land. Or they can just make t1 aa, idk. Point is, t3 land isn't so bad unlike t1 aa spam since it also helps their offence with t3 tanks.

On the other hand, if land slots went into t1/t2 air more often, the problem with t3 air wouldn't be so bad. Often there isn't even another air factory other than in air base.

If the meta was for air slot to go t2/t1 air instead of t3, I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. Sounds like land slots would have more chance to get in on the air action. Transports would also be much better since they aren't just flying targets like they usually are at t3 air stage. Of course, t3 air still has to be good.

@FtXCommando
Survivability depending on storage is interesting, but it breaks muh immersion. Make mex volatile too so they all blow up on crazy rush.

Alternative is t3 bomber + t2 bomber one shots mex, so you need another player to support you to make the rush work. Or t3 air player goes t2 bombers instead for their higher efficiency damage per mass.

Anyone using crazyrush for a balance discussion loses their brain privileges. We’d be moving janus to t3 stage if we cared about crazyrush. Having to use t2 bombers (or t3 gunship or another strat) to finish up a loose mex either delays the strat rush itself or gives a slower target for ints to prioritize.

It also gives interaction capability and makes punishing an eco greed gremlin actually be their fault as they shouldn’t be ringing mexes without some margin of safety.

The more people post the more I think we’re playing different games. It would be good to help air t4s be viable? It would be good to make drops easier? What? These are absolutely insane parts of the air gameplay as it is and the former is getting a ridiculously large nerf because of how insane they are. The latter has always danced around the cusp of being oppressive because of their speed, hp, and damage potential.

ASF are incredibly tanky for their mass cost and have very strong dps. One or both should obviously be reduced. However they are the only strong counter to strat bombers aside from static SAMs and the only real counter to T4 air. So maybe buff T3 MAA (which always seemed a bit weak to me) too. Obviously a fighter plane should be the best form of AA but maybe shift its power a bit more elsewhere.

First strat rushes honestly can be countered if they are scouted in advance even without Tech 3 anything. Make like 4-5 T1 AA turrets and position 15~ interceptors accordingly and you can cause their considerable investment to be totally wasted. Harder to do with stealthed Cybran strat but still doable.

put the xbox units in the game pls u_u

@ftxcommando yeah let me go for corsair snipe, cool I killed 1 ACU!

oh wait one opponent has 2x eco and went t3 air, there's a strat sniping my teammate and all my corsairs either died on the first snipe or enemy ASF are eating them alive.

Yeah going t2 air was the key to winning, sniping is a super good strategy on teamgames and not absolute garbage that makes some other dude have more eco and better units. But if you kill 1 ACU, you did your job no? xdxd

FAF Website Developer

Is this an attempt to say t2 air is not viable in teamgames?

@ftxcommando said in Restructure air by delaying tech 3 air:

The idea of making ints trade mass efficiently against asf is even funnier, now you have literally zero reason to ever even go t3 air.

Even if I ignore all other T3 air units that can be built and just look at asfs, inties trade mass efficiently with swifties yet swifties are still built - being faster, more durable and taking longer to run out of fuel are significant advantages even if mass for mass in a fight they're worse than inties. Are you trying to argue there is zero reason for people to build swifties because inties trade mass efficiently with them?

Much of the value of swift wind comes from the fact you have an HQ you made to spam aeon gunships. You now have an HQ that can make ints or swifties. Between the two, you are able to put more mass into air faster by spamming swifties and since air is a heavily timing focused part of the game, that spike in mass in air means you can win an early air fight and snowball an advantage before an int airgrid can scale into matching your mass investment. This is the same principle as janus or notha air wins.

So what's your point there? ASF are only decent for that 2-3 minute period after getting early t3 air and then once the more efficient int scale catches up (easy with the t3 pgen + t3 air hq investment you must pay while enemy can just ask for a t3 engie from land/navy player) you lose forever?

@ftxcommando Not really, maybe in some coordinated high rated teamgames they are. But in 90% of every other teamgame its literally T3 air rush all the way. The window to effectively use T2 air is very limited and needs coordination from the team.

Maybe in your experience T2 air is really strong but in the average teamgame, all t2 bombers are just cannon fodder for the dude getting ASF on min 9-10.

FAF Website Developer

Tbh, the lower the average skill level the bigger the T2 air abuse window is. People won't have flak, won't have AA nor ACU in proper positions. It's literally easy pickings for you. What's more, fuckers will throw single ASF after your intie/t2 bomber cloud and keep on throwing their tech lead instead of getting the snowball rolling.

So no, T2 air is even stronger in lower rated games.

And imo it get's way harder in higher rated lobbies to do it, that is if at least half the people can be arsed to play the game lmao.

Here, some replays of me being a t2 air retard in lower rated games.
https://replay.faforever.com/17871445
https://replay.faforever.com/17846127
https://replay.faforever.com/17845769
https://replay.faforever.com/17839100

Id love to see every option besides option 3.

The level of coordination is drastically overstated. At most, having 1 person on the same page will be all you need to win a game. The reason you don’t see t2 air often is a self fulfilling prophecy of low rated players thinking t3 air is all that matters so they only practice it and then only know how to do it. I have seen PLENTY of dudes that farmed 1500-1700 rating off of bashing noobs with t2 snipes because they actually bothered to learn something besides 2 bos. It’s the same issue as noobs still percy spamming, the lower the rating the lower the sensitivity to balance. If you start going “muh 1000 rated games” you will absolutely ruin gameplay in higher levels because nobody there is gonna realize strats suck until they need to 4 pass t2 mexes.

In fact I KNOW this is the problem because I’ve had lower rated people submit training replays where they try to do t2 air play but it fails. What do they do? Treat it like strats. Make 2-3 t2 bombers, send them in, they die, soon they realize and then go t3 air, now they have nothing but lost time, now they lose. Then I got to read about “there was nothing I could do dude” against asfs.

Lower rated players not using T2 air doesn't have to mean that T2 air is bad at lower ranks.

It could also mean that the lower rated players that do use T2 air stop being low rated rather quickly.

I remember T2 bomber snipes were actually quite a popular strategy on the 'Gap of Rohan', the original 'noob gap map', back like 3-4 years ago - mostly used with cybran Corsairs. So I wouldn't say the noob-side of the community never had contact with this concept, it's just that given the fall of Rohan and rise of Dual gap, being a much larger map, the T2 snipe ability and how it's executed probably fell into oblivion.

I'm no pro, but given what has been said up till this point, maybe an immediate solution could be to try and remedy the snipe-potential of T2 fighters/bombers? What would be achieved by this? With a bit of a 'propaganda', players could be educated on the primary strength of fighters / bombers - to be both. By doing this, maybe over time players would realize that T2 is actually a competitive anti-air solution - ofc, outranked by 1:1 T3 air.

Reduce T2 air alpha, increase area

How this could be achieved is maybe by increase T2 anti-land ability, while reducing their snipe strength. One way to do this is by increasing their AOE range, while reducing damage.
Current damage values (for larger targets), assuming static targets:

Janus Corsair Notha
1200 (1600) 1200 1250

Maybe reduce these values to half, around 600-700, but increase their AOE by 30% to 50%. You could add some variety by say keeping the Corsairs a bit more 'snipe' oriented, so their AEO could be made a bit larger, but also damage reduced by less. Mass cost would then have to be adjusted (I'd argue lowered by 20-30%, potentially mass-matching ASF).

Reduce T3 strat aoe range, maybe HP

Reduce Strat AOE range

In similar kind of fashion, another thing that could be done is making T3 strat bombers more of a 'strategic' strike unit, and less 'f everything in this general area' kind of unit, by reducing their AOE by say 20%, but keeping the damage. This way, you would take away their ability to snipe multiple mexes at once, while still having them keep their sniping ability. They would still be a threat, but making them more mass-expensive or implementing the speed hierarchy (maybe not making them slower than inties, but as fast - so a well commandeered strat can still do some nice damage, but can be caught by Inties with proper micro) proposed in my previous message, which would mean they area easier to stop with existing forces players might have on the field, namely inties and T2 fighters. You would somewhat reduce their ACU-snipe capability given it would be easier to dodge with smaller AOE, but I don't think that's a bad thing in and of itself.

By doing this, it would additionally reduce, albeit not cripplingly so, the strength of rushing T3 to get that T3 strat. I'd argue that's 75% of the reason why people rush T3 in the first place - not to have ASF for the sake of air dominance, but to have a way to stop Strat snipes, and the only way to do it effectively is ASF, given other anti-air units can't catch up with them and kill them in reasonable time.

Reduce Strat HP

Another change that could be done to make this more reasonable is to reduce T3 Strat's HP to like half. I know land and air are not the same, but it kinda makes sense for the 'artillery' unit to be less tanks than the 'fighters'. Like to get my point across, compare T3 bombardment units (namely mobile arty) with T3 ground-combat units (titans, percys, bricks, harbs...). They have significantly lower HP than the units that will actually partake in the brawl - because they are assumedly supposed to be used with the premise they are safe to 'go out in the field'. Ofc their range allows them to not stand in the very front lines, but if you are making a push or using them as 'sneaky snipers', it's more than likely they will be in a position where a flank attack will get them killed.

Killing units like that doesn’t matter in a teamgame so you just made t2 bombers effectively useless in teamgames and focused gameplay around gunships. Which in turn means the only good t2 stages are sera and aeon with UEF t2 air being even worse than their t2 navy.

Also, as I stated before, t2 air needs to work well as a comeback mechanic for 1v1 gameplay. This change would eliminate Cybran ability to use snipes as a punishment tool for too greedy play in 1v1 and make then extremely toothless there.

@fichom Janus is really bad for snipes (I tried once out of desperation and learnt never to try again after seeing the pitiful damage they deal). Nothas can be dodged. That just leaves the corsair and even then its damage isnt great if dodged so if scouted ahead of the snipe attempt it should be possible to defend against.
With full share applying to most games now snipes can also cost you the game since you likely lose all the bombers in the snipe attempt and could make the enemy team better if you killed a weaker player.