T1 bombers are too good at hunting down expanding engineers
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Problem:
- t1 bombers are devastating vs expanding engineers. Allowing for no margin of error for the defender, while causing potential game ending damage. Scouts and doging is not a reliable defense even when executed correctly if the bomber is microed expertly or if it happens to fly by the scout radar radius
- t1 bomber vs transport is a recipe for a 5 minute long game
- while a nice quality of life change, the addition of bomber radar range made them more deadly than ever (vs t1 engis)
- they are not that useful otherwise (most of the time serving more of an utility function vs radars, snipers, tmd and the like)
Fix: detailed below.
T1 engis should live with low hp from one bomber pass. Some combination of the following:
- increase engineer hp
- decrease bomber damage
Bombers should be capable of economic damage (other than t1 engineers)
- decrease mex and pgen hp so that they are left with 40-49% hp from one bomber pass
Make up for reduction in damage if necessary
- decrease bomber cost
- (possibly also adjust buildtime)
Note that all changes should apply in all faction matchups
Side effects
- pgens need to be split now like back in 2013 (this is good imo, rather than everyone packing squares of pgens to minimize walk time in most situations)
- mexes and pgens are more vulnerable to raids from all units
- engineers are less vulnerable to raids in general (good imo, atm engi always dies in engi+tank vs tank situations)
- navy assist engis are not so suspectible to a couple of stray bombers anymore
- goodbye first bomber
Exact values can (should) be played around with to find a good balance.
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This really just sounds a lot like skill issue to me. You can just make your own air scout to see the bomber and dodge it. And if it’s a big map, scout it and click it with inties since bomber is so slow.if your transport gets bombed it just means you didn’t scout well.
Also your ideas are insane, so 2 bombers will one shot any pgen? Easy way to drop 4-6 bombers and just kill all t1 pgens? Splitting pgens js 10x more annoying than just clicking left or right when I see enemy bomber. If the 1500 ladder dudes can consistently dodge a bomber, so can you.
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Interesting idea because it could lead to some changes in early meta game which is quite boring to me.
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@femboy said in T1 bombers are too good at hunting down expanding engineers:
This really just sounds a lot like skill issue to me. You can just make your own air scout to see the bomber and dodge it. And if it’s a big map, scout it and click it with inties since bomber is so slow.if your transport gets bombed it just means you didn’t scout well.
Also your ideas are insane, so 2 bombers will one shot any pgen? Easy way to drop 4-6 bombers and just kill all t1 pgens? Splitting pgens js 10x more annoying than just clicking left or right when I see enemy bomber. If the 1500 ladder dudes can consistently dodge a bomber, so can you.
Your comment is so outlandishly disrespectful that it leaves me wondering whether it was intended as a plain insult or was it born out of some wild delusion (?)
I must have been an absolute machine when I was the highest rated ladder player in 2019 without knowing how to dodge a bomber, let alone build scouts or target move inties.
Anyways, the point of these changes is that there are real changes to gameplay. Yes, this means you shouldn't stack 9 pgens next to each other in a square so that 2 bombers can kill them all. This is not outrageous or unprecedented.
Before the hoverbomb nerf some years back the pgen placements of today would have been unthinkably greedy. Splitting pgens is not as bad as you may imagine. Some people used to have templates for splitting pgens, but just drawing lines of pgens is not terrible either. Also iirc cybran pgens can already be 2 shotted.
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I agree with Blodir - bombers are exceptionally strong versus engineers. Especially first bombers feel frustrating - you can't see them coming unless they happen to fly over a raiding party. And as your engineers are all spread out, making one MAA is not sufficient to stop it.
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I think it should be possible to have "first bomber" a valid strategy that have to be considered.
Still, I agree with Blodir playing against those are very annoying.
But as Femboy said (in a rude way): It is very possible to counter this with intel and intie quickly.In my opinion, the bomber may need to get "less frustrating" instead of "weaker".
And to do so: Increase cost to make it a tougher risk vs value calculation for the attacker. -
I like that this change would make the expanding phase in the beginning less volatile. It doesn't feel good to be set back by a huge amount in the first minutes of the game. At the moment the interaction is very coin-flippy. An important dodge can make the difference between a nearly useless bomber and a lost expansion. Putting more emphasize on early damage to structures makes the interaction more predictable.
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@frozen_byte said in T1 bombers are too good at hunting down expanding engineers:
It is very possible to counter this with intel and intie quickly.
With the assumption that I started with an air factory too. But usually I open land
, I can't make interceptors. -
So new meta will always be first Air now?
Still, If we modify the "risk vs value" odds it may become less frustrating because you know the enemy has committed into the bomber and invested a lot of resources that he is missing now. -
What about increasing bomber cost and damage proportionately? It makes first bomber weaker when it fails (as well as giving more reclaim), and means a greater investment to going first bomber, without being as dramatic as almost doubling engineer health vs bombers.
For example there are times I might have a clump of 5 engineers in my base and have failed to scout/detect the bomber in time. If it gets a bomb off I suffer a major setback, but with the proposed change to let engineers need 2 bomb passes to die there's a good chance all my engineers can live and I shoot down the bomber despite my opponent needing a much bigger investment to get the bomber, a lot of attention to manage it (while also trying to expand), and me messing up by presenting a perfect bomber target.
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@blodir said in T1 bombers are too good at hunting down expanding engineers:
@femboy said in T1 bombers are too good at hunting down expanding engineers:
This really just sounds a lot like skill issue to me. You can just make your own air scout to see the bomber and dodge it. And if it’s a big map, scout it and click it with inties since bomber is so slow.if your transport gets bombed it just means you didn’t scout well.
Also your ideas are insane, so 2 bombers will one shot any pgen? Easy way to drop 4-6 bombers and just kill all t1 pgens? Splitting pgens js 10x more annoying than just clicking left or right when I see enemy bomber. If the 1500 ladder dudes can consistently dodge a bomber, so can you.
Your comment is so outlandishly disrespectful that it leaves me wondering whether it was intended as a plain insult or was it born out of some wild delusion (?)
I must have been an absolute machine when I was the highest rated ladder player in 2019 without knowing how to dodge a bomber, let alone build scouts or target move inties.
Anyways, the point of these changes is that there are real changes to gameplay. Yes, this means you shouldn't stack 9 pgens next to each other in a square so that 2 bombers can kill them all. This is not outrageous or unprecedented.
Before the hoverbomb nerf some years back the pgen placements of today would have been unthinkably greedy. Splitting pgens is not as bad as you may imagine. Some people used to have templates for splitting pgens, but just drawing lines of pgens is not terrible either. Also iirc cybran pgens can already be 2 shotted.
If someone questioning your skill/idea is "outlandishly disrespectful", you should turn your ego a bit down.
The whole point of t1 bombers is to cause damage early. Killing first bomber as an opening would make opening ideas less diverse. Then not making air early would be even better because not only can we dodge bombers, but we get a second chance to dodge since they dont one shot engies? What's the point of early air then? You make air to avoid getting bombed to the stone age.
Engies dying to bombers its just a part of the game, you can also make your own bomber or send more tanks towards the enemy since if they have air and you dont, then you should have more land and be able to raid their engineers anyways.
I've yet to lose a game because one bomber decimated my expanding engineers. Specially a first bomber. If it was so good, why dont I see it in ladder at all? I keep watching Nexus- replays for his build orders and he always goes air scout > intie. If it was as good as you say, I'm sure Nexus would be using it or he wouldnt be the top dog. If the top player doesnt do it or doesnt need it, then its a skill issue.
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I believe the game had quite a few changes leading to a long ecowhoring game so far, favouring ecoing and not aggressive plays.
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@rottenbanana completely agree, only ladder is where aggression matters. But let’s nerf aggression even more
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I've been watching all the tournament videos on faforever and I have been seeing a lot of bomber play and they are used a lot and are effective, on both sides. You need to learn to be aggressive with bombers and also to use them. It's very rewarding to use them right now and has upped my game because of it. A nerf might make it where a lot of people don't make early bombers any more.
Most of the time when a bomber hits a transport it's because afk engies or because you didn't split them after landing. If your playing point of reach and don't split your engies after landing you pretty much deserve to lose them.
Other things you could look at is increasing damage but slowing down rate of fire, and possibly making the bomber cheaper because one might get half the engies.
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I agree with blodir, there have been many games over in 1 min since bombers will just rape all engies with some mismicro.
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@frozen_byte said in T1 bombers are too good at hunting down expanding engineers:
I think it should be possible to have "first bomber" a valid strategy that have to be considered.
Still, I agree with Blodir playing against those are very annoying.
But as Femboy said (in a rude way): It is very possible to counter this with intel and intie quickly.In my opinion, the bomber may need to get "less frustrating" instead of "weaker".
And to do so: Increase cost to make it a tougher risk vs value calculation for the attacker.I actually don't mind first bomber either, but that's probably because I don't personally struggle against it. While defending is very doable it does also have the signs of a high volatility play at min 2 which I'm philosophically opposed to. Despite that I like that it's a differerent kind of beginning to an otherwise pretty boring first few minutes of the game. Like you might as well start with a factory if first bomber is not a factor. Anyways idk how I feel about it, might be better if it's gone since a lot of people find it very frustrating.
As for bombers being counterable... this is sort of true. Here's a few points:
- Early bombers are very common even at high level ladder games. Players wouldn't build them if they didn't perceive them as worth it, and as expected when observing some games you'll find that bombers regularly do decent damage. I would take that as empirical proof that countering bombers is non-trivial
- It's very rare to see this, but it is possible to get an undodgeable bomb with some very difficult micro by stopping the bomber on top of the engineer and firing straight down (the bombs drop much faster than normal). So if we're splitting hairs bombers are actually technically uncounterable (other than with your own air)
- Speaking of going air that's not so easy either. If your opponent went second air bomber first and you went second air scout+inty first then you are certainly winning. However what if opponent went land? Then you are quite honestly pretty fucked since your inty is not doing anything. You could go scout first and then wait, but it's not really worth doing (here I must refer to nobody doing it since the explanation is out of scope of this post...). In the end, the meta is that if you go second air, then you make a bomber (and it is that way for a reason). And so a very common situation is bomber vs bomber where you must both dodge the enemy bomber and land your own bomb.
The point of the proposed changes is not that bombers are op and need to be nerfed. It is a design change, and I would consider it more a buff than anything. Ideally you'd see bombers used throughout the t1 stage for various tasks, rather than just sniping t1 engineers. So yes, I agree completely with your statement that "the bomber may need to get 'less frustrating' instead of 'weaker'".
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If the 1500 ladder dudes can consistently dodge a bomber, so can you
Keep in mind it's also a 1500 ladder player microing the bomber, so at your level it might feel fair since the bomber micro is usually not great. I think if two players of equal and sufficient skill are devoting equal attention, the microed bomber will usually always be able to kill a microed engineer within 2-3 drops.
Bombers are very strong at sniping engineers, and the value of sniping an engineer can be immense (often game winning during the expansion phase), since the value of an engineer is mostly based on how far it has travelled towards an expansion. For example if you snipe two engineers that have almost arrived at the 3-4 mex expansions on a map like open palms, with the next closest engineers being in the main base without taking equivalent damage in return, the game is practically won.
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@archsimkat Even 1800 people dont do much with t1 bomber. And as I said, Nexus- rarely opens t1 bomber, its almost always t1 air scout 3 inties repeat. I'm not 2k rated but if nexus- isn't doing it then I don't think it's that good.
If a bomber kills two engies and the bomber player doesnt receive any damage back, then it sounds like the issue is a player not being agressive enough. Could say the same of someone rushing two labs and killing two engies. That's a game won if your engies aren't touched at all.
I think you all forget how many times a bomber gets caught in a land or air scout's radar and it does absolutely nothing or gets dodged and gets absolutely 0 value.
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@blodir said in T1 bombers are too good at hunting down expanding engineers:
It's very rare to see this, but it is possible to get an undodgeable bomb with some very difficult micro by stopping the bomber on top of the engineer and firing straight down (the bombs drop much faster than normal). So if we're splitting hairs bombers are actually technically uncounterable (other than with your own air)
But isn't that a bug then? Shouldn't every bomb drop take the same amount of time?
Also couldn't we just decrease the speed of the bomb? So it becomes easier to dodge, if your actually trying.
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i agree t1 bombers are overpowered because they're too good at many different things, sniping engineers being one of them, but i dont think the proposed changes are good ideas
