The function of automatically building mass storage around the miners.
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@jip If using 3, instead of 2, clicks to mass fab ring a t3 mex decreases lag (I assume because then you don't give nonsense mass fab construction orders to t1 engies?) then I'm all for it.
It's a rare enough occurrence that the difference between 3 or 2 clicks probably doesn't matter all that much.
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@jip Also, maybe a dumb question, but is ringing t3 mass fabs with storages even efficient? Cause with some very basic back of the envelope math it seems like building another t3 fab is just straight up better.
From testing:
- Mass Cost of a t3 fab: 4000 mass (m)
- Energy upkeep of a t3 fab: 1500 energy upkeep (eu)
- Mass generation of a un-caped t3 fab: 16 mass per second (mps)
- mass cost of a mass storage: 200 m
- energy upkeep of a mass storage: 0 eu (obviously)
- Nr. of storages required for full adjacency: 12
- Mass generation of a caped t3 fab: 21.5 mps
A simple model for energy upkeep to mass cost is to use the conversion: 2500 eu = 3240 m, because that's the price and production of a t3 pgen.
Hence 1 e upkeep = 1.3m.(Note that this is the highest cost energy can conceivably have in the t3 stage, i.e. the best possible case for capping with storages.
In a real game, energy is probably a bit cheaper in the lategame, due to pgen adjacency and stuff like RAS, SACUs, you pausing your (air-)facs and teammate overflow often giving you more energy than you need 'by accident')
Putting the above together:
- Efficiency of an un-caped T3 fab:
16mps / (4000m + 1500eu)
= 16mps / (4000m + 1950m)
= 2.7e-3 mps/m - Efficiency of a caped T3 fab:
21.5mps / (4000m + 1500eu + 12*(200m + 0eu))
= 21.5mps / (4000m + 1950m + 2400m)
= 2.6e-3 mps/m
Result:
Even in the best possible case, capping a t3 mass fab is slightly less efficient than just building a new one.
If you value energy less than what I assumed here, and imo you probably should, the case for capping gets even worse.If my assumptions and calculations are correct, I think we shouldn't add a t3 mass fab cap command to the game add all. It would just incentivize bad play.
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@CheeseBerry It doesn't decrease lag, but it prevents lag from accidentally causing you to queue fabricators while you can not sustain them (yet).
I think the typical scenario for a t3 mass fab is not to have it surrounded entirely by storages, but instead you cap those that are at the 'edges' of your grid for a small bonus.
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@jip Well, the result doesn't change, regardless of you using 1 or 12 storages next to the t3 fab.
Storages are, if the above is correct, only efficient if they touch 2 or more t3 fabs -
I should probably note that I don't have a strong opinion about including or not including a t3 mass fab command in the game.
The efficiency difference is small, so even if one or the other is 'better', it's not a huge deal either way.Also both of the above options are less efficient than just building a t2 mass fab (3.0e-3 mps/m, at worst), which is also much more flexible imo. As such, I can't remember the last time I even built a t3 mass fab, hence the command probably wont affect my gameplay at all.
My only concern is that if we add a command like that in the game, we basically say that using it is "correct" as otherwise, why would it be there?
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My only concern is that if we add a command like that in the game, we basically say that using it is "correct" as otherwise, why would it be there?
That is why not all suggestions were included. I am personally not of the opinion that everything has to be optimal - it just has to be decent. I'm eager to hear other opinions! -
Ringing radars by rightclicking shouldn't be added. Aside from omni's, which you only build 1 per game of, you basically don't ring any radars since the very small e you get from it is not worth the detriment of making pgens in vunerable places and making it easier for your opponent to spot your radars
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I'll add it to just the omni radar then.
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I always try to ring my T2 radars, I even have a template for that.
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Yeah I gotta agree with tagada, ringing a t2 radar is definitely efficient, so at least a 2 click command for it is almost certainly useful and quite unlikely to use by accident.
Imo a 1 click command would be fine too, cause when do you ever assist a non-upgrading radar unintentionally?Edit: I'm wrong actually.
Ringing a t2 radar with t1 pgens only gives you an additional 38 energy in adjacency bonus, i.e. 9.5 additional energy per t1 pgen.
That is slightly less efficient energy per mass than a t2 pgen is:
t1 pgens around a t2 radar:
(20e+9.5e)/75m = 0.39e/m
t2 pgen, no adjacency:
500e/1200m = 0.42e/mBy the same logic as for the t3 fabs, I'd say wheelie is right and we want the command only for ringing omnis.
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Never said it isnt efficient, just that its 10x easier for your opponent to spot and kill it.
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@CheeseBerry it may not be as efficient, but it is quick and dirty especially when you do not have the man power to make a t2 pgen. I'll remove it for the t1 radar and keep the t2.
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Whatever you do can we not have new things enabled by default?
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This is based on the old feature (mass extractor capping). Do you want me to turn it off by default?
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Let get real technical, how much e does it save if you ring a t1 radar and then upgrade it to T2, do you save on upgrade cost?
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If it’s good enough of a feature to add then it should be enabled by default since in the long term it decreases complaints about lack of automation, unintuitive garbage, whatever.
Personally I still don’t like nor use the automatic mass storages so I’d just immediately turn this off too. Also don’t really think it warrants being added into the game because then you’re making some random things in the game have some reaction that other things don’t. Like no one new is going to understand why t1 radar assist doesn’t do anything and will likely only find that t2 radar autorings by sheer luck.
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How about putting all features discussed here in a mod? Then you can also go to town with rings for other buildings and options to customize everything
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Gotta agree with FTX here and say features like this should always be enabled be default.
It's by far the easiest way to communicate that they exist, and they wouldn't be implemented if they weren't useful to a significant percentage of the player base.
(Also turning them off is quick and easy)@Jip Fair enough, I don't really have a strong opinion here either as I can definitely see situations were you would want to ring your t2 radar. Tagada is doing it after all
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Hey look tagada just jumped off a cliff
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In that case jumping of a cliff must be optimal gameplay as I'm incapable of doing anything but blindly copying the highest rated player in the room
