<<. Take hoverbombing for example. Imagine if instead of removing it bomber balance was adjusted to compensate because everyone above 1500 knew how to hoverbomb anyway. Bombers would probably be unusable in lower ranks. >>

@CorvathraNoob
Yeah, talking about this and sorry for this small off-topic but I thought hover bombing was removed like a year ago or so. I just watched a Gyle cast from January where Blodir was able to make it and my jaw fell to the ground.

It's just suppossed to be harder to make?

@khabume
<<am a technically newbie with less than 100 games. I am most likely one of the people you're going to lose in 2 years. If I try to look forward, here's what I see and feel. I mostly play custom games, because that's the first thing that presents itself when you start Downlord's FAF Client, so I've stuck with it. I'm not a huge fan of 1v1. I like Team Games.>>

Also:
<<tech race and units rant>>

Well, the first thing is the cause of the second thing, in big team games everyone goes for the fastest eco -> higher units, at least one player in each team. For better FAF experience go to 2vs2 ladder games, it just gave us so much fresh air where more tactics are avaliable.

Well that's interesting, It would be a valid place to add some faction diversity perhaps? I like the idea of some factions having better pd defenses than others.

Ouh yeah, I'm interested

@The_Mak An explosion underwater dissipates in a sphere-shape manner so the hit delivered to the target is quite minimal, that's why depth charges are if something, the WORST weapon when dealing with submarines. In world war 2 they knew it and that's why they developed hedgehogs.

A shell exploding in the surface will do shit to a vessel 30 meters underwater aside from making a loud noise.

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@moses_the_red said in Understanding team maps:

@BlackYps said in Understanding team maps:

You assume that people are making a conscious effort to pick a vault from the map and then play that. But they don't.
Nobody is digging through the whole vault to find the perfect map he desires.
Many people don't even know how to host games/don't want to host, so their options are instantly reduced to currently hosted maps. Then they choose maps that they already know and voila you have arrived at the feedback loop that has been described many times.

No, as I said in my last post, people are unconsciously choosing those maps because they offer them the best gameplay experiences.

You can't pretend that there is no competition between maps

Now there is a power law that governs map choice. Top maps will get played far far more than other maps, but if you host a map, people WILL join it and try it out.

Whether they'll join it twice is far less certain.

And that is being familiar with the map, plus confidence that the map will fill quickly. People are afraid of pvp environments, so they want mitigate their fear by playing in a familiar environment. Also many players just want to have a game quickly and don't care so much about the particular map.

Yeah, factors like familiarity and confidence that the map will fill are real. Fear of PVP environments is not. That's putting your head in the sand. The map has to justify the time spent in lobby.

If you have a map where the meta for the map is to gun upgrade, grab expansions and t1 land spam... its likely to fall flat in the team game scene, and its not because people don't like PVP, its because waiting 40 minutes for a 10 minute game isn't worth it to them. That's a wholly rational choice.

To mitigate the lobby waits, people choose maps that have a longer run time. This isn't a fear of PVP, its about getting a decent game in during their limited free time.

This is just one in a long string of insults I've heard people hurl at people that play custom games, and its just fucking comical at this point. They aren't afraid, they don't carefully covet their global rating, they aren't morons or whatever other insult you want to throw at them.

They just don't want to wait 40 minutes for a 10 minute game.

Not a hard concept to understand.

They don't even know all the maps from the vault. They can't choose the best one.

They choose the best maps they've played.

Look, with the 1v1 ladder system, 1v1 ladder maps should dominate the team map space. Everyone plays at least a little 1v1 right? Its massive free advertising for any map that gets chosen in the ladder rotation.

Why aren't those maps dominant on the team map scene despite all their advantages? They're prettier, they get casted more often, more people have played them... they get massive promotion from being part of the ladder pool... yet they don't get hosted.

Its because the games those maps facilitate just don't make sense given the lobby wait times.

No, they just refuse your claim that all the gap and astro players chose these map specifically because they would have the best experience out of all maps on these.

Well... that's too bad, because they do for a large part of the community.

And they shouldn't, because there should be new maps targeted at that space - at the team map space.

And I'm just not seeing them, and when I do see them, they're 1v1 maps with extra spawn positions... which >indicates that there is a fundamental misunderstanding between the map maker and the team game player base.

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It's fun that you are claiming that people joins Astro Crater because it offers good gameplay.
Currently I am a 1400-1500 player, I love maps that offers tactics as I am a huge fan of cheese (2 T2 ghetto gunships snipes, sparky drops, concealed billies etc...) and more times than not I see myself playing astro because it's one of those maps that gets filled instantly.

After reading the whole thread I can buy your point in being a good map for noobs, it get them to learn the eco cycle without worrying about the hardest concept in rts games, map control.

Now take twin rivers or even better, Canis River as an example.
Canis River is a wonderfull map because it gives you all, each Comm has a define objective but with space to try different tactics, where T1 spam is necessary but not that vital as in other maps, were a semi-competent player can make it to the late game and where if a friend dies is somewhat easy to take over his spot.

Is the perfect map for noobs and average joes to get better and were what you learn can help you in other maps.

Aside from eco, nothing that you learn in Astro Crater will help you anywere and even worse, people who only play astro will take awful habits.

Astro perhaps can be a good map for noobs but it is overall a hurting map, the beauty in this game is the variety of tactics, rushing T3 arty with ravagers at front or going to the enemy base with 4 ACUs with gun is okay and fun but if there are little more options left...it gets boring. Static gameplay with little to no options is not a definition of "good gameplay".

To fix this situation we should make another event as with the ladder marathon, before the first marathon (3 years ago?) I avoided ladder because it was scary as hell to me, to much terrain to cover, to many flanks...I was nervous even before starting the game. The marathon forced me to play all the time to the point I started getting better, trying new things and getting the feel that the other guy probably doesn't know what I have either, got used to scouting and to produce units and eco at same time. I ended second in that marathon and now I appreciate more this game, because of it's complexity.

We must make the new people appreciate it as well because is what SupCom has different against other games and what kept me hooked all these years since the game came out.

Astro "Cancer" doesn't help in none of that. Heck, even "Rush me more" is better than Astro.

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