SACU's in Water too hard to kill
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Hey guys, last year there was a vivid discussion about the re-Balancing of SACU's. I am not sure if something got changed but I noticed in my games that SACU's are very hard to kill in Water.
In long matches on big maps with sea, like DualGap, Ressource Allocation SACU's appear at some point in the water and start building t3 Trop launchers (cybran) or do reclaim or just slowely creep forward claiming more and more sea area. They are very hard to kill with torpedos since they dont receive much damage from it, and activelly participate in the navy engagement by damaging ships by reclaiming.
I think this is an issue because:
- ACU's are not a natural part of Navy play and shouldnt become a major factor of Navy battles
- They are way to hard to kill imo, either because torps are not designed to kill them efficiently or they just have way to much hp.
What I would suggest:
- Since Torps are the only way to kill SACU's under Water, they have to perform much better against them.
- Give SACU's a nerf when they are under water so the normal amount of damage does double to them when under water
Or do I miss something how to kill these suckers efficiently with the current tool-box?
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Why should they be easy to kill?
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Are you saying you can't kill them the same mass in subs/destros? HARMS were already nerfed heavily.
I disagree this is an issue. RAS SACUS in particular (i.e. with no survival upgrades) die pretty easy.
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I agree with sacus being not easy to kill underwater, but disagree it being relevant. If ras sacu becomes relevant in your navy fight, its because you made battleships only and refused to adapt.
Not to mention they are fairly expensive to build -
@Sainse said in SACU's in Water too hard to kill:
Why should they be easy to kill?
I didn't say they should be "easy" to kill, I said they are "very hard" to kill. If in late game you opponent has a few of these in the water you would need like 20 t2 subs each to kill it in reasonable time or shew it away.
@deletethis said in SACU's in Water too hard to kill:
Are you saying you can't kill them the same mass in subs/destros? HARMS were already nerfed heavily.
I disagree this is an issue. RAS SACUS in particular (i.e. with no survival upgrades) die pretty easy.
A Support ACU costs 2'000 mass, a t2 sub 1'100. So by this logic 2 t2 subs should be equivalent mass-wise and be able to kill it but that is basically impossible. If you change your navy composition to deal with the SACU's you are not having the right composition to kill your opponents navy. SACU's only take damage from torpedos but Torpedos are shit against most surface vessels in late game.
My general opinion is, that it is worth looking into it. It feels unbalanced, almost an exploit, to use the SACU's in Water to gain an advantege in late game Navy scenarios.
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Subs aren’t a good metric through. T2 sub should be relatively low in HP because otherwise it will kill destroyer and other naval units. SACU cannot do anything and cannot build anything that isn’t killable by direct naval fire (even HARMS are above water until they’re fully finished). They’re good at reclaiming and honestly there is the only thing they’re really good at.
As to your initial question there have been no SACU changes in the several last years, so maybe you just didn’t notice it previously
@Nuggets said in SACU's in Water too hard to kill:
If ras sacu becomes relevant in your navy fight, its because you made battleships only and refused to adapt.
Isn’t it any late t3 navy on seton, especially since people go into heavy frig spam much rarer these days? How good SACUs there? And how prevalent? Asking since I’m not that experienced
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I don't understand the argument that if your opponent gets say 5 SACUs for 10k mass, and you get 18 T2 subs for a similar mass, that you are at a disadvantage on navy - seems like the reverse to me since SACUs can't do much to help the navy fight (basically limited to reclaiming wrecks and building torpedo launchers for even more mass which are weak at that stage of the game) whereas the subs can help win a navy fight.
Checking stats 'vanilla' SACUs also aren't much tougher than bricks for their mass, have an aoe explosion (so in larger numbers aren't as durable), and lack the torpedo attack and defence of bricks.
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@maudlin27 said in SACU's in Water too hard to kill:
I don't understand the argument that if your opponent gets say 5 SACUs for 10k mass, and you get 18 T2 subs for a similar mass, that you are at a disadvantage on navy - seems like the reverse to me since SACUs can't do much to help the navy fight (basically limited to reclaiming wrecks and building torpedo launchers for even more mass which are weak at that stage of the game) whereas the subs can help win a navy fight.
Checking stats 'vanilla' SACUs also aren't much tougher than bricks for their mass, have an aoe explosion (so in larger numbers aren't as durable), and lack the torpedo attack and defence of bricks.
It's not like you are choosing between building 5 SACU's or 18 T2 Subs, the SACU's you build anyways in lategame, they are part of upscaling your eco. But their use as a factor for naval dominance is what I believe was never intended.
From my observation their impact is more than just reclaiming debries. At some point they creep so much forward it almost feels like being under siege by these SACU's. They get under the opponents Navy and start reclaiming ships and that is an additional (and a quite significant) amount of damage. Trying to kill them feels almost futile.
I think it would improve the game re-Balancing the SACU's. A Rambo-SACU should of course have an impact on the battlefield, since that is it's purpose. But RAS-ACU's (which are built 99% of the time) shouldn't be as useful on the battlefield. They are now being used for teleporting and taking out nuke defenses or Game Enders or, as stated before, in the water to gain Naval dominance.
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You will only see this on dual gap where unit mix does not exist. In "normal" games you will see the sacus die when or if they are under your navy. It doesnt have to be to navy, but definitely torpedo bombers as any naval force should have cruisers, which makes it very costly for the enemy to shoot them down
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@Thomy100 said in SACU's in Water too hard to kill:
It's not like you are choosing between building 5 SACU's or 18 T2 Subs, the SACU's you build anyways in lategame, they are part of upscaling your eco. But their use as a factor for naval dominance is what I believe was never intended.
You used unupgraded SACUs for your comparison - outside of Seraphim they're terrible for eco (and Seraphim aren't exactly great).
So for this argument, you should be using RAS SACUs as the comparison; at which point they become really weak mass for mass vs t2 subs, or units like bricks.
Alternatively, if using unupgraded SACU stats, your subsequent comments about SACUs winning navy by reclaiming the enemy fleet (coupled with referencing to using them to upgrading eco) imply that it is common that a player can build unupgraded SACUs; have them slowly walk towards an enemy naval fleet that both heavily outranges them and moves much faster; the enemy fleet chooses not to retreat out of the SACU's feeble reclaim range during this time; the SACUs then slowly reclaim the enemy navy; the enemy navy lacks notable torpedo attacks (e.g. destroyers, subs) to damage the SACUs while they do this; and then once this is done the SACUs retreat and get RAS upgrade.
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Yes, because I only managed to find the stats of the unupgraded SACU on the faf github page. On the SupCom Wiki page I saw now that the SACU with RAS upgrade is 2500 mass, so only 500 mass more than the base SACU. Not a game-changing difference.
On custom maps with players having a specific role (like on dual gap), you dont tech up all branches, you tech up the one you need. So navy goes navy, air goes air etc. Therefore countering SACU's in Water with Bricks is not an option because you dont invest in that Tech tree.
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Ras sacu costs a lot more than 2500 mass in FAF, it’s around 6500 mass
