T3 Land is kinda unbalanced now

Hey community, after the patches last year I think t3 land has got very imbalanced. Not in terms of t3 land in general, but the fractions balance. I will try to explain my point below.

1.Since the patch 3750 we see snipers getting nerfed more and more. I actually kinda agree on nerf that was made in 3750. Here is the screenshot if someone forgot:

Slightly mass cost inrease and bigger energy, as far as i get it this was made against snipers rush, which I can accept. What I do not really get is the build cost nerf.I do not get why sera snipers got nerf in build cost more than the aeon ones and the difference in nerf is 10%! Assuming that the sera t3 tank is the worst land unit among 4 beasts (harb, brick and persival) in my opinion. But this was not an end to the nerf however.

In the upcoming patch 3775 was another balance of snipers:

Together with the patch 3750 the energy cost was increased three times and mass cost was decreased by 10%. I do not feel this was needed that much. For example in case of sera, sniper was the best unit on t3 stage not because it was imbalanced, but because t3 tank is not as good compared to percivals, harbs and bricks. However, when we get an army of percies against army of snipers, together with t2 shields u make just a little bit of balance when percies attack, because tons of shields absorb damage and recharge, allowing percies to barely suffer damage when they get to the target. Only bricks used to have no real counter against snipers. Ok, this is just my opinion, can be argueable.

But the damage radius nerf was something that was reason for not seeing snipers in lobbies anymore, i literally almost never see people spaming them, specially for sera, cause it makes barely sense now to use them against any other faction, UEF counters them easily with t3 mml (they are faster and have more range then snipers and tbh I have never seen someone doding anything with snipers, cause they are not moblie, logically), about bricks I will talk a bit later, cause I have more to say about them.

Summing up, we see that snipers were nerfed with no real compensation for that, cause the nerf was way too strong and the other units were buffed in the patch 3775.

Talking about authums, they used to be worst t3 unit among the beasts and worst by a margin. But after the patch 3775 it has become even worse. Here is the screenshot:

You can say that they got buffed, but looking to other units, except for harbs, percies and bricks have gained more buff in speed, looking for a percentage, you can calculate if you want, whereas harbs have gained almost same speed buff.

Now let's talk about bricks, why the hell they got buffed so much? I literally see no reason for that. Compared to percies, they can be used against t1, t2,t3 and t4, whereas percies are used mainly against t2-t3 and can be countered by t1 spam. Percies used to be better in the case of the battle against t3 and t4 units, because of the range, but now bricks:
A) have same range
B) have more hp
C) have better speed
D) wider range of use
This even not talking about bricks against othuums and harbs. Harbs in general are not bad.

The main problem I have seen in cybran is lack of mobile shields, but this can not be balanced just by making bricks op.

So this is my opinion about the t3 units.

It would have been a bullshit without my personal suggestion on balance.

My suggestion would be following:
Nerf bricks and give cybran mobile stealth generator an ability of regen aura (I think this is a good fit for cybran cause all the mechanics consider them having low hp but regen). This might be too strong, so also making a new unit (regen aura generator) is not as bad.

About othuums I have just an overview of how they whould be. Eather make them very fast or make them having more hp.

Snipers in my opinion should get the old range of attack, cost can remain same.

Thanks for your attention

Othuums either need to be faster or have more HP. Percies should have a little T1 Striker turret on top to help with lab spam ^_^

There definitely won’t be some new regen aura unit and Cybran getting Aeon absolver will resolve their shield issue at t3 stage.

I'd be in favor of a damage boost to the Othuum in general. Seraphim are all about making things dead, so it fits.

@ftxcommando when we will get that toy to play with it.

t2 arty is unbalance.
hovers units are overpower full vs cybrans.
t2 navy was to much unbalance , now it is less unbalanced.(good job balance despots)
hives and harms are shit now!!!
novax just nerf it.

@ftxcommando said in T3 Land is kinda unbalanced now:

There definitely won’t be some new regen aura unit and Cybran getting Aeon absolver will resolve their shield issue at t3 stage.

we get the absolver but not brick nerf. Now bricks will be more op

@toka said in T3 Land is kinda unbalanced now:

What I do not really get is the build cost nerf.I do not get why sera snipers got nerf in build cost more than the aeon ones and the difference in nerf is 10%!

This was probably done (don't exactly remember since it was 1.5 years ago) to make both snipersbots have the mass mass to bt ratio. The buildtimes were always the same but the sera sniper has always been 10% more expensive than the aeon one. (more dps, more hp, more range in 2nd fire mode + the best mobile shield in the game to support it). The general rule of thumb when deciding on unit bt is for it to have similar/same ratio's as similar type units. For example each frigate has a different mass cost and bt but each of them have the same ratio. You can see this as "sera sniper was always supposed to have more bt but it didn't, this fixed the wrong stat".

@toka said in T3 Land is kinda unbalanced now:

Together with the patch 3750 the energy cost was increased three times and mass cost was decreased by 10%. I do not feel this was needed that much. For example in case of sera, sniper was the best unit on t3 stage not because it was imbalanced, but because t3 tank is not as good compared to percivals, harbs and bricks. However, when we get an army of percies against army of snipers, together with t2 shields u make just a little bit of balance when percies attack, because tons of shields absorb damage and recharge, allowing percies to barely suffer damage when they get to the target. Only bricks used to have no real counter against snipers. Ok, this is just my opinion, can be argueable.
But the damage radius nerf was something that was reason for not seeing snipers in lobbies anymore, i literally almost never see people spaming them, specially for sera, cause it makes barely sense now to use them against any other faction, UEF counters them easily with t3 mml (they are faster and have more range then snipers and tbh I have never seen someone doding anything with snipers, cause they are not moblie, logically), about bricks I will talk a bit later, cause I have more to say about them.
Summing up, we see that snipers were nerfed with no real compensation for that, cause the nerf was way too strong and the other units were buffed in the patch 3775.

Just to give you some insight: The old snipers were close to an autowin tool in high lvl lobbies and completely unfun to play against. You could not catch them because they would kill everything trying to chase it down and often the only potential counter would be a specific t4 (fatty or ahwassa) or a t2 arty base. The issue however was that you would start scaling your sniperbots from the moment you reached the t3 stage and they would snowball farming free damage over time. I remember seeing yudi making such an obese sniperbot/shield stack that even a mega getting close to it would live for 15 seconds before it would die to the second sniper volley.

The main idea behind the patch 3775 change was to revamp it in a way to make it more fun to play with/against it.

• Increase the e cost by a lot for 2 reasons:
  - You can't blatantly rush t3 land and instantly start spamming snipers. The idea is that you should build main t3 tanks instead and only after you build your first t3 pgen you can start spamming snipers. This prevents the snowbal sniper blob from forming this early into the game.
  - It makes it harder to maintain a massive sniperbot stack since it requires a lot of shields with e drain + it requires extra e drain on the factories making more sniperbots
• Decrease the max radius and unit movement speed so there should be a lot more active gameplay involved when playing with or against sniperbots since you won't have as much room available to move around (just for reference aeon snipers still have almost double a percies range + higher speed). The goal was to make sniperbots feel more similar (to some degree) as how you would use mongoose, where you can abuse the higher range and relatively fast speed on them, but you have to pay more attention since the difference in ranges is smaller. Compared to the previous sniperbot gameplay of having a massive stack slowly move forwards while everything runs away from it this seemed like an improvement to the gameplay.

The lowered masscost was supposed to counteract these changes. I did however just now when writing this post realise that buildtimes weren't changed together with the masscost. I don't remember whether that was done on purpose or not, but it is important to note that with a bigger unit revamp like this it's impossible to foresee all the consequences of said change. I do think that lowering their unit bt by a bit would make sense though since you still wouldn't be able to rush them out (since lowered bt would increase the e drain on the fac even more).

I don't really recognize some of the problems you describe though. Percies with shields pushing into snipers with shields still is no easy thing at all. A very important thing to keep in mind is that you need to get close with your percies, but othuums and harbs beat percies mass to mass in close range (especially with your own mobile shields). And even if the percies win the brawl with the harbs/othuums your snipers are still at the back doing free damage over time. The brawl most likely got most of the percy shields down so your snipers can finish them off. If the percies don't commit to the brawl and back off slightly when the harbs are coming for them you can just copy his movement with your harbs. This leads to a lot of back and forth movement while your snipers keep doing damage (i know you said there's a shield stack, but realistically speaking you should not have that many shields to just prevent damage for free and if you do your opponent should have a way bigger army).

@toka said in T3 Land is kinda unbalanced now:

You can say that they got buffed, but looking to other units, except for harbs, percies and bricks have gained more buff in speed, looking for a percentage, you can calculate if you want, whereas harbs have gained almost same speed buff.
Now let's talk about bricks, why the hell they got buffed so much? I literally see no reason for that. Compared to percies, they can be used against t1, t2,t3 and t4, whereas percies are used mainly against t2-t3 and can be countered by t1 spam. Percies used to be better in the case of the battle against t3 and t4 units, because of the range, but now bricks:
A) have same range
B) have more hp
C) have better speed
D) wider range of use
This even not talking about bricks against othuums and harbs. Harbs in general are not bad.
The main problem I have seen in cybran is lack of mobile shields, but this can not be balanced just by making bricks op.
So this is my opinion about the t3 units.
It would have been a bullshit without my personal suggestion on balance.
My suggestion would be following:
Nerf bricks and give cybran mobile stealth generator an ability of regen aura (I think this is a good fit for cybran cause all the mechanics consider them having low hp but regen). This might be too strong, so also making a new unit (regen aura generator) is not as bad.
About othuums I have just an overview of how they whould be. Eather make them very fast or make them having more hp.
Snipers in my opinion should get the old range of attack, cost can remain same.

First of all the easy things. The speed buffs were more of a "lets increase t3 land unit general effectiveness vs t4's by a bit". This followed a 0.1 speed increase for almost all t2 land units over a year ago btw. Aside from that i think this change can be mostly ignored for t3 land balance.

The brick range was simply needed since the lack of mobile shields made bricks almost unplayable in teamgames. I remember some games vs blodir where i had a gun/nano uef acu (early game upgrades) and i managed to kill 20 to 30 bricks with it. Now imagine an acu with a shield upgrade as well. There is just nothing cybran could do against it. I know there are issues that the +2 range causes, because outside of acu's bricks were already a solid unit even without the extra range increase (i dislike the change myself as well, but think it's a necessary evil until we have a better solution). This change is supposed to be (partially?) removed when the cybran absolver is there, but the details on that are yet to be decided.

Othuums i agree are too bad to properly compete currently, hence why this is currently on fafdevelop.
https://puu.sh/K8SKc/c0a3602617.png
Not saying this is the only change they will get (after all balancing is a continuous process) but othuums are definitely on my radar as a problem child.