My thoughts about balance
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@tomma said in My thoughts about balance:
@gabitii it was already explained why dualgap is out of scope of balance discussions, i wont repeat it. Doesnt matter if half playerbase resides there, if it means that every other map gets fucked to make it more enjoyable for you, its not happening. Besides, if any sort of high rated game not on dualgap style map is good enough to understand more about how balance works outside of gap! Just queue like 3v3 or smth
I do play mapgens and 3v3, specially lately, and I see not a big difference in navy gameplay on average water 20x20 mapgen and dual gap when it comes to navy. Except for in mapgen you might not have underwater mexes.
I played also setons for a while, yeah, that map is very special in terms of navy gameplay.
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@gabitii i dunno then, perhaps you play with bad people so that you overestimate power of cybran destro! I do not claim to be good, but if you want to test it we can do that!
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@tomma said in My thoughts about balance:
@gabitii i dunno then, perhaps you play with bad people so that you overestimate power of cybran destro! I do not claim to be good, but if you want to test it we can do that!
let's do it
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@gabitii so you think you could beat me in a 1v1 if we both started with a paragon?
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@gabitii let me update my client!!!
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Your aurora problems overlook the fact Aeon has blaze and flare to address weaknesses of aurora when the weaknesses are too large for the strength. Your aurora suggestions are just normalizing the factions for no pertinent reason since Aeon t1-early t2 stage is hardly a problem.
Your t2 air diagnosis is just wrong, janus is not the most OP t2 air unit. Aeon has the best t2 air roster due to the sheer flexibility of their gunship in combination with all the mass concentration advantages janus brings in fighting air fights via swift wind. Corsairs and Notha across a large distribution of games are each capable of ending games in way more flexible ways than janus which will always require at least 6-8 prior to doing relevant damage. Especially since a janus play will always revolve around powerlocking, notha or corsair can simply bleed you by killing mexes which janus are pretty terrible at killing. Likewise they can go for ACUs.
Aeon gun was insane, two players can play exactly the same and Aeon will win with an ACU that has half HP. The gun existed as a solution when neither flare nor blaze solved the problem of aurora and Aeon t2 stage was using Asylums to keep aurora alive until you could harb rush.
Sub gameplay is just totally not based in reality. Early frigs don't care about subs because they kill BP in the water. You kill the frig, I just killed 50% of your bp, now I will have even more frigs which spread across the map which give me intel, passive AA damage, and kill your expansions. So long as frigates are the designated AA/Radar/HP of navy, they will basically always dominate subs in importance. Particularly since 6 t1 engies can emergency build a t1 torp launcher and halt any damage to BP that a sub could possibly do, can't do that against a frigate.
Giving UEF destro strong torp defense is a terrible idea just because cooper exists. Your suggestion is once against an uncreative normalization of factions rather than playing into the fact UEF has the most unit-mix centered navy of the 4 factions in T2 stage.
Your battleship analysis is just wrong, UEF BS is only going to get good at large quantities. This is just a commonly held opinion. Aeon BS is considered the best BS across maps just because it's rare to get senton style maps where you see 8+ battleships fighting each other. Aeon is the best in small quantities, especially in combination with a push leveraging their strong destro.
Aircraft carriers are good, they are huge HP for mass and give good AA. Include some aircraft carriers with some torp defense and torpaggedon has a real pain dealing with anything. Aircraft carriers are also much better at dealing with gunships thanks to the HP and range compared to cruisers, which are a common counter to deal with navy without losing mass in torps to random aa.
The destro stuff is just whatever. I had a game once where Yudi would keep microing his sera destros and passively building up numbers while repairing via resto field against Farm who kept making salems. At some point it was like 8 salems against 3 phim destros and they still couldn't manage to kill 1 of the destros because he would dodge enough damage that the regen + vet would keep the destros going. At some point Yudi matched the destro count and ran Farm over. This was on flood tabula too, not even a wide open navy map.
Aeon destro is a one-unit-does-all button that is harder to dodge than salem. It is better.
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Aurora are bad in some cases but they are also very good in some cases. If you have a problem with this, you may address our good friend faction diversity
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@waffelznoob The only way to make this man happy is to have 0 faction diversity and to make every single unit in every faction function the exact same and have the exact same stats. Change my mind.
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He is me
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@tryth But then what excuse will be used when you lose vs this perfect balance?
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@exselsior if you could find an excuse then youd be a lot smarter than me
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@ftxcommando said in My thoughts about balance:
Your aurora problems overlook the fact Aeon has blaze and flare to address weaknesses of aurora when the weaknesses are too large for the strength. Your aurora suggestions are just normalizing the factions for no pertinent reason since Aeon t1-early t2 stage is hardly a problem.
I literally named you all the weaknesses and strength. Strength are range and hover (which is a doubtable strength, more a feature). Weaknesses are low HP and low speed. I have not told you to normalize factions, I have never said that, even my suggestion on auroras was not aimed to normalize them.
Yes flares are strong when raiding, but they are too weak in tanks vs tanks battle. Regarding auroras it is not only my opinion, I heard also high rated map gen players saying they are bad.
Your t2 air diagnosis is just wrong, janus is not the most OP t2 air unit. Aeon has the best t2 air roster due to the sheer flexibility of their gunship in combination with all the mass concentration advantages janus brings in fighting air fights via swift wind. Corsairs and Notha across a large distribution of games are each capable of ending games in way more flexible ways than janus which will always require at least 6-8 prior to doing relevant damage. Especially since a janus play will always revolve around powerlocking, notha or corsair can simply bleed you by killing mexes which janus are pretty terrible at killing. Likewise they can go for ACUs.
Corsairs on mexes? For real? It is so ineffective, dude. U need like 3, and sometimes 4 corsairs to kill a single t2 mex. Notas yes.
Aeon gun was insane, two players can play exactly the same and Aeon will win with an ACU that has half HP. The gun existed as a solution when neither flare nor blaze solved the problem of aurora and Aeon t2 stage was using Asylums to keep aurora alive until you could harb rush.
I agree on that, I have never said it was ok. I just said that the nerf is way too hard. I would rather make advanced range same as normal range upgrade, cause it is too expensive for 5 ranges. It requires t2 pgen in most of cases and almost same as shield upgrade in mass.
Sub gameplay is just totally not based in reality. Early frigs don't care about subs because they kill BP in the water. You kill the frig, I just killed 50% of your bp, now I will have even more frigs which spread across the map which give me intel, passive AA damage, and kill your expansions. So long as frigates are the designated AA/Radar/HP of navy, they will basically always dominate subs in importance. Particularly since 6 t1 engies can emergency build a t1 torp launcher and halt any damage to BP that a sub could possibly do, can't do that against a frigate.
You have right when talking about small maps, frig rush killing engies is very good, but when you are talking about bigger maps, frig is not as powerful cause it simply takes more time untill it reaches destination.
Giving UEF destro strong torp defense is a terrible idea just because cooper exists. Your suggestion is once against an uncreative normalization of factions rather than playing into the fact UEF has the most unit-mix centered navy of the 4 factions in T2 stage.
Ok may be my suggestion was not right and not the best, but you agree that there is a problem in UEF t2 navy, right?
Your battleship analysis is just wrong, UEF BS is only going to get good at large quantities. This is just a commonly held opinion. Aeon BS is considered the best BS across maps just because it's rare to get senton style maps where you see 8+ battleships fighting each other. Aeon is the best in small quantities, especially in combination with a push leveraging their strong destro.
Ok, I have not told that the problem is in UEF and Aeon Bships, I told that there is a problem in cybran t3 bships.
Aircraft carriers are good, they are huge HP for mass and give good AA. Include some aircraft carriers with some torp defense and torpaggedon has a real pain dealing with anything. Aircraft carriers are also much better at dealing with gunships thanks to the HP and range compared to cruisers, which are a common counter to deal with navy without losing mass in torps to random aa.
For real? You build Aircraft carriers for AA? The only Aircraft carrier that has a good AA is Atlantis, or the other are shit in relation mass/AA. All the aircrafts are nothing when taking into account that there is hover flaks. I never want to spend that much mass on AC when I can take engie from an ally and build hover flaks? Or drop an engie and build bunch of SAMS will be more effective. AC are just the units that are barely used.
The destro stuff is just whatever. I had a game once where Yudi would keep microing his sera destros and passively building up numbers while repairing via resto field against Farm who kept making salems. At some point it was like 8 salems against 3 phim destros and they still couldn't manage to kill 1 of the destros because he would dodge enough damage that the regen + vet would keep the destros going. At some point Yudi matched the destro count and ran Farm over. This was on flood tabula too, not even a wide open navy map.
I have not told you that sera destros are bad, vice versa, I told that they are OP and told that aeon destros are bad and that I do not support salem buff, because it was not needed. Irrelevant example
Aeon destro is a one-unit-does-all button that is harder to dodge than salem. It is better.
Oh really? Why though? They have the same muzzle velocity, like exactly same. -
@tryth said in My thoughts about balance:
@waffelznoob The only way to make this man happy is to have 0 faction diversity and to make every single unit in every faction function the exact same and have the exact same stats. Change my mind.
I have never told that, dude. I can give you an example where I find the balance perfect, it is t3 land. For me it is the most interesting gameplay, cause the factions are diverse, have their weaknesses and advantages, they are not copy paste and they are balanced very fine. Well done Balance Team on that!
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@tryth said in My thoughts about balance:
@gabitii so you think you could beat me in a 1v1 if we both started with a paragon?
I have no idea about how to take your opinion seriously when you keep writing these meaningless sentences.
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@gabitii Flares being weak vs tanks in direct engagement is besides the point, they only need to be good at raiding and being able to concentrate themselves so that they can take good trades vs tanks. Auroras being bad in generic teamgames is also expected, its the same reason other t1 tanks bad but even worse.
Additional range on acu is mega worth it because it allows you to oc units in t3 stage much more safely. Also like not that aeon is bad without that additional range, right? So being able to get it on too of all the nice stuff is strictly better. -
@gabitii Also about subs! On bigger maps you tend to focus on eco way more, you delay your production until you have quite a few t2 mexes so frig rushing not being good is just given, so what exactly your subs are gonna do? Force one torp launcher and then 2 torpedo bombers?
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@gabitii said in My thoughts about balance:
@tryth said in My thoughts about balance:
@gabitii No he’s saying you guys don’t know how to use the units correctly
Honestly, from the gameplay of 2k+ mapgen players. I would say they are better not because they know how to use mobile units better, but because they do know way better how to balance resources. And I do not only mean having your resource bar to be perfect, but in the gameplay. How much resources you need to spend for defence, for example, lower rated players usually spend way more in defense then needed. They have a better experience in attacking gathering a critical mass, so that it will not be a mass donation. And also importatn mention they do know better of how much BP they need right now and how much BP they will be needing in a short future. It is not only about using units properly, it is about rightfully spending resources (not meant of balancing the resource bar). It is my perspective of how I see top players.
The paragon question was in relation to this, ur basically saying 2k players are good bec we know how to eco. So I’m saying take the ecoing out of the equation do you think you would win? Wasn’t a meme was a genuine question.
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Your aurora suggestion is to buff speed and remove hover, that's literally making them move to every other type of tank.
Yes, corsairs on mexes. 1250 damage a corsair on 2k hp max for a mex. If you get real bad RNG you might need 3. Reminds me that another thing corsair and notha are great for are sniping tmds, janus sucks at that.
5 range on ACU = percy and brick can't do anything against Aeon ACU. Neither will your own ACU. If it cost as much as normal gun you would still get it late t1 or early t2 every game because it's a stupid increase in ACU utility.
Frig is still powerful on big maps. Again, they provide radar. Big map = larger chaotic period = need more units to protect the map = frigs have more odds to sneak around and do damage to BP whether expanding or at navy facs. In turn, the radar enables you to secure your own side better since you have intel.
I addressed a way to make UEF work better in my own thread, mainly making cooper into a slow sniper style unit that does passive damage while the destro works as the low range brawler. Shield and cruiser are pretty self evident in role.
Cybran BS is closer to Aeon BS, it trades some speed and dps for more range. Never heard anyone call it bad. Just a mid tier BS in terms of utility.
Yes you checked out carrier AA for mass, good job. Now check out the HP for mass and the range.
Salem buff was needed cuz salem is trash. My example is proving salem is trash, that's the relevancy. They were always considered the worst destroyer since forever. Generally, you buff the worst thing. Aeon destro is still strong, losing the range just made it that the Aeon player cant just right click the navy to win the game anymore. Or kill BCs mass efficiently.
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@ftxcommando said in My thoughts about balance:
Your aurora suggestion is to buff speed and remove hover, that's literally making them move to every other type of tank.
I did not say that, I said i dont care if it will be removed.
1250 damage a corsair on 2k hp max for a mex. If you get real bad RNG you might need 3. Reminds me that another thing corsair and notha are great for are sniping tmds, janus sucks at that.
Corsair is not as precise as notha and you will not deliver 1250 dmg from a single shot on mex, some of them will miss. And I have never told notha is bad, I said only about corsair, they are not comparable.
5 range on ACU = percy and brick can't do anything against Aeon ACU. Neither will your own ACU. If it cost as much as normal gun you would still get it late t1 or early t2 every game because it's a stupid increase in ACU utility.
If there are small amount of percies/brick you can still OC them with any ACU when shielded and upgraded and feel safe. But when there are bigger amount (crit mass) it is neither safe with Aeon ACU.
Frig is still powerful on big maps. Again, they provide radar. Big map = larger chaotic period = need more units to protect the map = frigs have more odds to sneak around and do damage to BP whether expanding or at navy facs.
I did not say anything about frigs btw, your argumentation on why frigs are good is irrelevant.
I addressed a way to make UEF work better in my own thread, mainly making cooper into a slow sniper style unit that does passive damage while the destro works as the low range brawler. Shield and cruiser are pretty self evident in role.
ok, so at least on one point we agree, we both are not fine with current t2 uef balance.
Cybran BS is closer to Aeon BS, it trades some speed and dps for more range. Never heard anyone call it bad. Just a mid tier BS in terms of utility.
I have given you some examples on why I find them bad, either you tell me on where I am wrong concrete, or dont tell "No one told they are bad", cause I also can argument it saying "Lots of people call it bad" and we both could have right at the same time. Prove me please they are good.
Yes you checked out carrier AA for mass, good job. Now check out the HP for mass and the range.
Why do I need HP for mass relation if they are literally trash when it comes to killing air. They just dont do it, their AA is too bad, not comparable to the mass cost, except for Atlantis which has a decent AA. If I just need HP, I can build another bship, cause it has same HP/mass relation as the AC. So it is still pretty useless unit.
Salem buff was needed cuz salem is trash. They were always considered the worst destroyer since forever. Generally, you buff the worst thing. Aeon destro is still strong, losing the range just made it that the Aeon player cant just right click the navy to win the game anymore. Or kill BCs mass efficiently.
I will not answer you on salem, I just hardly disagree on aeon destro. It might be strong on destro vs destro, but it is irrelevant for the most cases, as it is something that will not happen in real game.
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This is why this thread is pointless.
You:
- Say subs are op
- Directly mention how subs promote passive turtle gameplay
- Specifically talk about situations of having a few more subs vs a few more frigs
I:
- Explain the general utility of frigates
- Showcase how this leads to aggression paying off significantly, especially early on
- Explain why subs don’t do it, including counters.
“Uhhh irrelevant”
Unit isn’t OP or meta defining when the unit it is constantly going to be compared to has more utility. Navy games revolve around frigates with the exception of maps that have one billion underwater mexes.
Your argument about cruisers and carriers makes me conclude you would build a 5 hp boat that does 1000 dps to air, has 50 range, and costs 2500 mass. Turns out hp doesn’t matter! Neither does range! All about dps for mass! Why doesn’t this extend to every other relation of the game btw? Why isn’t zthue the shittiest arty with its lowest dps for mass?
