The Problems With The UEF - Part 9 (The Atlantis)

ComradeStryker

THE PROBLEMS WITH THE UEF - Part 9 (The Atlantis)

Hey, guys!

I've had this post idling somewhere on my PC for quite a while now.
I brought it back out as the last few hot topics have been about or in regard to navy or navy balance.
Hence, here we are.

(THE TYPICAL DISCLAIMER!!!)

-Disclaimer-

These are just some problems I wanted to bring attention to. I am offering my own solutions to these problems, however, I am not a balance team member, nor do I have a large data pool to back up my suggestions; Hence, the balances will likely need some adjustment. There may also be some better ideas to fix these issues, out there - so I encourage you guys to suggest your own ideas as well.

Problem: The Atlantis, detailed version:

The Atlantis - A multi-role unit???

The Atlantis is a unit that unfortunately suffers from an interesting model (pardon the innuendo), and being a carrier and sub.
Looking back through the forum ports, I'm continuing off of some (very) old posts, all of which shared a similar topic:
The Atlantis still needs a change for the better.

To start off, let's look at where and why it 'suffers'.

Offensive Capabilities:

As a T4 experimental, you'd expect this unit to have exceptional capabilities, right?

Let's see what 12,000 mass gets you! These are its stats:

4 AA launchers, each with 140 DPS. That gives us a total of 560 DPS.
This translates to 1 & 1/2 T3 SAMs. (SAMs having about 350 DPS)

The Atlantis fires 4 torpedoes, each dealing 200 damage, every 2 seconds for a total of 400 DPS.
That translates to slightly more than one HARMS. (HARMS DPS: 375)

For comparison, a T2 cruiser has an AA damage output of about 500 DPS.
A T3 Aircraft Carrier has an AA damage output of 640 DPS.
Not to mention they have about 10x the HP of a Cruiser at 20K-24K HP.
The Atlantis has 40,000 Base HP.

So, not only does one carrier have half the HP of an Atlantis, but it has better AA capabilities as well.
All for a quarter of the mass!

And the Atlantis's torpedo damage can be barely compared to that of a HARMS structure.

Defensive Capabilities & Utilities:

Carriers tend to have some form of defensive capability and sometimes some offensive utility.
However, the Atlantis lacks all with the exception of its large vision.

No Tactical Missile Defense - commonly found in all other Carriers.
No Torpedo Defense - as one could expect from a Navy Experimental.
No Tactical Missile Launchers - as one could expect from seeing the Seraphim T3 Carrier.

A few destroyers can happily ignore it due to their torpedo defense and overwhelm it with their torpedo offense.
(Fun fact, it takes 6 Coopers to completely counter an Atlantis!)

So, it suffers as a carrier, as it doesn't have nearly the AA capability it should.
It doesn't have any utility that could help the surrounding allied navy.
It continues to suffer as a carrier as it cannot build on the move, and it needs to surface to deploy its squadrons - leaving it exposed.

It suffers as a submarine as navy can basically ignore it 80% of the time.
Torpedo bombers can pick it off when it's submerged; navy, when it's surfaced.
It lacks any torpedo defense and due to its agility and size, allows battleships (and other units) to groundfire it with ease.

It doesn't have any meaningful ability or utility that could assist in its survivability as a T4 unit.

"What about the production of aircraft? That's gotta be a benefit, right?"

Well, it suffers from the same problem all other mobile factories do.
It can arguably, also, be seen as a disadvantage if a player uses an Atlantis to build 'sky-boats' instead of using it offensively alongside Navy.

From my experience, almost no one builds this unit.
And if someone does, they're not using it to construct aircraft out of it.

Propositions:

Size & Agility:

The biggest solution, which I am happy to see is getting a look at already, is in its size.
It's far too large - which causes pathfinding issues if not already ignoring the ground firing from enemy units.
An increase in turn rate, speed, and some other small stats like acceleration and top speed, could also go well with this change.

Utility:

TMD and TML:
An increase in its capabilities as a carrier - solidifying itself as an upgrade to that of the T2 UEF Cruiser.
Could then be similar to the Aeon Missile Ship, as well giving it more versatility.

Capabilities:

Following the Utility section, an increase in its AA damage or torpedo damage - again, identifying the unit more so as a carrier or submarine.

Abilities:

This may come as controversial, but stealth.
As a T4 Sub, keeping all current stats the same, stealth would be the way to go.
This would help reduce the accuracy of incoming ground fire allowing it to more easily counterattack or raid.

A possible replacement here could be Jamming, but with its size... it wouldn't do much to help against ground firing if you can guess where it is based on the clumps of fake icons.

Expansion:

That being said... we can also completely look at it in a different manner.
Instead of focusing on what it could have, we could focus on what it has and expand on that a little more.
The Atlantis has quite the range. We could further expand on that - increasing its kiting tactics as all UEF experiments have. (High range with low health.) We can see this with the Fatty, Novax, and Mavor - all being able to hit the targets from relative safety.

A reduction its HP, so it would be far less tanky, (it is a sub, after all), and a proportional increase in its AA and torpedo ranges. Placing the unit as a more long-range sub.

Problem: (The Atlantis, TL: DR)

The Atlantis suffers from being a multi-role unit.
It lacks strength both above and when submerged in water.

Proposed Solution(s):

Option 1:

Decrease Model Size, Increase Agility, & Increase AA and/or Torpedo damage:

Slightly reduces incoming ground fire accuracy and slightly increases micro potential.
Helps the unit be a little more specialized as a Carrier and/or Submarine.

Option 2:

New Abilities:

Stealth:

Increases survivability.
(This can already be done in-game, albeit with a multi-faction team and some preparation.)
Can possibly be replaced with Jamming?

TMD and TML

Enforces itself as an upgrade to the Governor - similar to the Seraphim Cruiser and Carrier.

Option 3:

Increase Weaponry Range & Decrease HP:

Shifts the unit's focus to be more of a long-range unit. Kiting becoming its main strength.

Bonus Option:

Something that I thought was cool was this proposition brought forth by @Jip a few months ago.
It was to give 'experimental features' to the Atlantis.
This included allowing it to fire its AA when submerged.

Though the idea was ultimately rejected, I can see it being revived if it comes with some more balancing and tweaking.
Perhaps the AA fires at half its maximum range? Or its AA is halved when submerged?

This could help the Atlantis better fit a support role as both a Sub AND Carrier.
Something no other carrier will have - a unique ability.

Welp, that's my take on the Atlantis and where it could be.
Sharing just a bunch of small suggestions and ideas.

What're your guys' take?
Is the Atlantis already a good unit where it's at?
Or should it be adjusted differently or more than what I suggested?

~ Stryker

maudlin27

When comparing the AA to the cruiser you neglect to note the AA range boost the Atlantis gets which seems a glaring omission.
It also has another big benefit - you dont need t3 naval fac to build it. So for example if an eco slot needs to support navy quickly and doesnt have their own naval fac they have the option of just building an atlantis (which for an experimental is cheap) to provide general purpose support. It won’t do any one thing well vs a specialist unit, but it does provide some useful utility - long range mobile AA; long vision (always useful); a bit of extra damage for naval combat, and a good amount of health.

It shouldn’t be buffed massively because otherwise you risk creating an all purpose unit that can be spammed with little thought.

That said I’d be ok with it getting some basic torpedo defence (similar to that of a destroyer) and being able to build while moving (if that was possible).

IndexLibrorum

Here's a suggestion.

You describe the atlantis as a multi-purpose unit, being able to function both as a carrier and a submarine. What if we split the abilities further, so that it can only fullfill either the role of the submarine or the role of the carrier at one time, but buff the abilities for that role?

This would mean that a submerged atlantis would significantly increase its DPS torpedo output, at the cost of all AA, a reduction in vision, and a reduction in speed. Conversely, surfacing the atlantis should increase its speed, increase its vision, and offer decent AA output (on par with, say, 3-4 cruisers—taking into account the increased AA range), but at the cost of not having any offensive/defensive torpedo's.

An atlantis that functions a bit like the Fatboy of the sea wouldn't be off-brand for the UEF. Looking at how their higher tier units all focus very much on high rate of fire and barrage-style fire patterns (T3 MML, Fatboy, Ravager, T3 gunships), an atlantis that shoots a barrage of torpedos would fit very well with the theme. Just make that contingent on not having AA, and you might have a sea experimental that actually gets used as more than an expensive T3 sonar.

ComradeStryker

@maudlin27 said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 9 (The Atlantis):

the AA range boost the Atlantis gets

Though, this is a nice benefit of the Atlantis, it doesn't really see much use at these ranges.
The only time you should surface it to fight air is to defend itself or when enemy air is engaged near it.
Otherwise a cruiser and a few shield boats could do the same job but more specialized and cheaper.
Cruisers have the added benefit of having TMLs as well.
So, that leaves almost no practicallity to surfacing an Atlantis.
Plus, the time it takes to surface the Atlantis makes for the extra AA range being useless.

you dont need t3 naval fac to build it
general purpose support.

This can be a huge benefit in the sense of not needing a navy HQ, but, I'd argue that you would be far better off building actual navy units to support your ally.
An Atlantis is nice, but a battleship is - arguably - better. More HP, higher damage output - and depending on faction, larger range as well.

The vision is nice, though a few T1 air factories can do the same for far cheaper and much sooner.
(With the exception of the undewater vision.)
The torpedo offense is okay, though often negligible when facing large groups of destroyers or units with anti-torp defences.

That said I’d be ok with it getting some basic torpedo defence (similar to that of a destroyer)

This would be a great addition, in my opinion as well. I'm glad we agree.
Feels awkward not seeing a unit of this stature not have this ability. Wierd, no?

and being able to build while moving (if that was possible).

I recall seeing a video somewhere on GitHub or maybe it was the forums, where it was possible to do this.
Perhaps it was not fully ready at the time and could still need some more work.
Here's to hoping it gets added soon!

@indexlibrorum said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 9 (The Atlantis):

What if we split the abilities further, so that it can only fullfill either the role of the submarine or the role of the carrier at one time, but buff the abilities for that role?

It already does this, somewhat.
The Atlantis is unable to shoot at air targets when submerged and is unable to build aircraft when moving.
Splitting the roles futher could go both ways. It could make it stronger where it needs to be or it could utterly break the unit leaving it in a far lesser state than it's current iteration.

Also, not sure reducing the vision when submerged would the way to go.
One of the Atlantis's only strengths comes from being a sub, another is the vision.

With it being underwater 95% of the time, then removing one of its only benefits seems like it would hurt the Atlantis more than help. Granted, it would really depend on how much vision is lost and how much torpedo damage is gained, though.

An atlantis that functions a bit like the Fatboy
high rate of fire and barrage-style fire patterns
would fit very well with the theme.
might have a sea experimental that actually gets used as more than an expensive T3 sonar.

I am a fan of this idea.
Perhaps decrease it's damage per torpedo and increase fire rate? Could do the same with the torpedo speed and range as well to give it a more long-range role, as I mentioned as well.

~ Stryker

robotcat

Can we make the Atlantis model smaller? it will good fix.

eraser

Funfact: If u pick up a deceiver with a stinger and put that badboi into the atlantis, u alrdy have ur stealth feature (same for donut)

IndexLibrorum

@eraser Yea, that's what Stryker referred to when he said "Stealth (This can already be done in-game, albeit with a multi-faction team and some preparation.)"

eraser

@indexlibrorum u are totally right, that went over my head