QoL changes

Don’t really understand how any idea here is a QoL change except the fact the sonar change would decrease QoL.

Don’t really get why you’re trying to turn atlantis into a variant of tempest you spam 8 of. You’re not supposed to make more than like 1 or 2, primarily for intel. Your change would especially hurt UEF now because atlantis is basically the only viable response to total t2/t3 sub cheese aside from an air win.

Dislike the t1 sub change just because I think it’s inferior to converting t1 subs to utility ships by turning them into the radar vision for frigates groups. Can have the hp to survive 1 torp bomber ig.

Give Atlantis a little torp defense, and make it able to fly with some depth charges

@ftxcommando about the qol, i didn't really know how to retitle that tbh

i don't understand your point about atlantis, you, as a uef player, should know best how beyond garbage this unit is, something tells me that if i'm gonna search for a 40min+ naval game i will see 0 atlantis

also no, it won't hurt uef whatsoever as you still have coopers to respond to subs which as far as i am aware are not t4's, also a very bad example to compare a heavy offensive unit with both epic alpha, torps and range with a trash sub that barely has dps of several subs, it's a direct buff to uef btw

i've also completely missed your point about t1 subs tbh, since one of the points was pretty much the vice versa of what you said, the point was to make subs blind and transition them to support units rather than raiding units, maybe you were referring to sub vs sub fights but then again, you have sonars for that

Coopers don’t beat barracudas or phim sub hunters. They get picked off by both and you will take bad fights. Your subs can shift+g and operate in a group of 10 to find the cooper on the edge of a mix and pick it off 10 v 3. If you keep all your coopers concentrated, they just ignore then and kill everything around the coopers. I had a game where farm was UEF navy against Cyb navy and it literally required atlantis to push into the enemy in any capacity.

Cooper is terrible at its job and unironically has less of a role in UEF roster than atlantis atm. Atlantis needs to be cheap so long as cooper is bad.

I think subs are terrible units to play aggressively with. There is no micro and the gameplay is ridiculously boring. They’re all the same speed, same cost, shoot the same way. Frigates are fun and involve positioning gameplay and micro to a much higher degree. I’d rather turn subs into a boat that makes your frigate more effective by giving frigates the aurora treatment where to use their full range they need radar. Subs become the radar. Sonar isn’t an answer for it because basically every mobile sonar is t3 and sniping 1 sonar is way easier than sniping 7 subs or whatever.

@ftxcommando said in QoL changes:

There is no micro

False. If you manually target enemy subs, your subs will overkill that sub and waste torpedoes. You can try to time your target switches to minimize this and actually consistently win equal sub count wars.

TOP SECRET bully sub micro technique leaked

Yeah I know, that’s still just not fun to me. The micro involves no thinking or timing, it’s super obvious what the best move is.

Big part of the problem is that subs have 0 collision so you cant “bait” an enemy to follow a low hp sub because they just have a deathball of 12 of them and if you don’t you get picked off.

it involves timing, but yeah i intentionally left out "and the gameplay is ridiculously boring" in the quote because it's not quite the most interactive micro in the game

i mean, you can still use any destro but sera or just make 10 t1 bombers to bomb an area if you want to deal with shift+ging subs, moreover you almost never build an atlantis vs regardless, it's only theory stuff that you put down there, in a real game you will just go for torps and call it a day

In a real game you go torps against any navy mix

It isn’t a solution when you don’t have air. You’re just donating mass.

You also can’t use any destro, UEF and sera autodie to sub spam. I don’t even think UEF destro can handle t1 subs.

give all torpedoes a small aoe (think 0.5 is the minimum) - a few already have this.

then you will get severely punished for any lame shift g sub stacking...

@rezy-noob said in QoL changes:

I. Intel->Decrease sonar's hp with 80%, it's quite bad that omni has to be shielded, samed, pded, etc while having a pool of hp to get sniped by a t1 bomber.

We haven't fully discussed this yet but there are plans (atleast in my head) to nerf the hp. The extent to how much it should be nerfed though i'm not sure about yet since they can't be shielded like an omni

II. Atlantis->yeah, i saw the changes on git but really? that is literally the worst exp in exitance from 2013, unless it's some memy setons, this unit is omega trash for it's cost.

the problem isn't the fact that it literally is better to make a bs instead with the mass but the fact that it dies to 2 zthuee drops or any sort of gf.

my options are of changing it are as it follows:
a. double the depth so nothing with gf can hit and increase it's cost with 50% mass wise, but i don't think this is possible since it requires some layer changes as well.
b. classic approach, give it fatties shield, increase damage output with 20%, and increase the mass and e cost by 30%, maybe now someone will actually try building it in an actual game.
c. steal the change from eq and give the possiblity to build while being on the move.

Atlantis isn't great but it's nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be. It's close to being usefull in numerous situations but just not enough because it dies to easily to groundfire, which this change is supposed to solve.

Also idk why you're bothering to mention the fobo's. I've seen it happen once or twice in 5k+ games and it's just a massive misplay if you let that happen.

I also actually think that your b. change (the dmg/mass part) will be a nerf to them since it makes it more rewarding to groundfire them with bs and harder to rush one out. The shield i think it a big misfit for an atlantis considering out of all navy units they have some of the best regen (together with tempest) because they vet so easily. You only need 6k mass killed / vet which is quite doable.

The c change is not really relevant to atlantis but to all mobile factories and it's something nobody has ever been against on adding if it's possible to do it properly.

III. Air grids->those are op. my approach would be decreasing t3 pgen adjacency with like 25-30% so people couldn't really spam ten million asfs to begin with. If considered that would require also any offensive air nerf with 15% in buildtime to prevent omega aggresivness and force players to take fights on some better defended locations.

IV. t1 subs-> those are omega bad if not probably one of the worst units in the whole game, their problem is that they cost too much while being irrelevant starting from min 5 and min 0 if the map doesn't have underwater mexes.
the idea of their rework is to either increase their hp with 2x and take away their direct vision range, followed by 20% damage decrease or make the crystal guns with the same amount of hp and damage but with the condition that those can't seen/detected by anything on the water/in the water with the exceptions of subs, sonars, omni, however they have to be dected by spy planes.

Completely disagree that they somehow are the worst unit in the game. They compete on the same stage as frigates who are sometimes deemed as one of the strongest units in the game and it's still worth it to make a few subs on almost any water map (yes even without underwater mexes). Yes you don't spam them out like you do with frigs, but is that an issue? Labs are also barely build numerically but they still have their own distinctive role, just like subs do.

What i do think they need is a slight speed increase so they are faster than frigs so they can actually chase them and catch up

you don't need any replay ids, those issue are there for last 10+ years and everyone knows about them directly or indirectly, any replay is a good replay to see how beyond bad those issues are

Is what some guy who said that mercies are too weak posted kappa

@thewheelie atlantis is bad, the fact that it is seen to deal with subs in the first place is stupid, uef has an entire unit specialised vs subs that would require rebalancing at this point.

Vision is probably the best atlantis has to offer since it s damage is atrocious and vetting will take as many years as mercy removal from the game, atlantis is honestly just annoying with little to no usage.

I guess you agreed with grid nerf? Or you just missed it idk.

And yeah, chrono, mercys cant compare since even their stats are imba, atlantis is just borderline unplayable

@rezy-noob said in QoL changes:

@thewheelie atlantis is bad, the fact that it is seen to deal with subs in the first place is stupid, uef has an entire unit specialised vs subs that would require rebalancing at this point.

I don't think so. Because a t2 unit has a special role nothing from that faction later in the tech tree can partially cover that role? Especially if we're talking about t4's that shouldn't be the case at all. Moreover they work differently considering you want to kite from long range with atlantis while this doesn't happen for coopers at all.

Vision is probably the best atlantis has to offer since it s damage is atrocious and vetting will take as many years as mercy removal from the game, atlantis is honestly just annoying with little to no usage.

Again you do realise they almost have the same dps as a bs right? Also if you think it takes long for atlantis to vet then you just don't really know what you're talking about when they are one of the easiest units in the game to vet and it's one of their main strengths.

I guess you agreed with grid nerf? Or you just missed it idk.

Don't really have an opinion on it.

And yeah, chrono, mercys cant compare since even their stats are imba, atlantis is just borderline unplayable

What i meant is that you said these were mega obvious things that everyone knows about but by the fact that i'm disagreeing on most of the things you posted means it's nowhere near as clearcut as you make it out to be.

Yes atlantis are bad which is why it gets a buff but it's nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be. It suffers from the same issue as vespers where you don't really make the unit because it doesn't have a proper roll or other units overshadow it (or a mix).

t1 subs aren't anywhere close to being omega bad as you say. You see them build all the time every map with water, just not in large quantities