AI MEGATHREAD

relentless

The replays were ok for me,
To be fair Mylaur anyone above a 300 rank playing against a non cheating AI is going to have an easy time.
For giggles you could try RNGAI (self promotion, just make sure you read the description for setup tips) with a 1.5 cheat/build multiplier on that same map and see if your experience changes.

Getting the acu to be remotely in the realm of a human is damn near impossible(have spent days/weeks/months trying), an (almost) single threaded game just doesn't have enough clock cycles to do complex calculations at the speed to capture the data required to react and make decisions, you can do fake micro but like you said the acu doesn't really know 'what' to do.

Example for reference : getting aeon auroras the try and maintain weapon range on a target during combat takes approximately 7 function calls per second per unit plus supporting logic, if there are 50 T1 auroras on the field fighting that's 350 per second and 50 units is a small number.

Sprouto

That's a boatload of processing, and you're only talking about a handful of units.

Psions

@tatsu

I don't doubt the ability of our AI coders, what I doubt is the ability of any coder no matter how proficient to make an AI that is capable within the SC engine of coming even close to even a 1200 rated player.

AI is simply to bulky at the moment code wise and you either end up with an incredibly specific AI for a specific map, or an incredibly generalist AI, that is weak at everything and easily exploited.

All games face this problem. Which is why most strategy games give insane cheats to AI to offset their inefficiency/stupidity.

OpenAI - or Modern AI techniques avoid all of this, because they function on a stastitical model, which can become very accurate through reptition and therefore are uniquely situated in that they are self training, and not overly bulky when it comes to hogging processing power or requiring huge logic trees.

tatsu

the point of this anyhow is ordering them, because right now they're unordered.

And I never suggested AIs on supcom's purpose could eventually be utilized to beat a 1200 human so I dunno why people keep turning the mic back to me on that one O.o

I do think however that once we have a good classification of AI difficulty we can utilize that to train up our roster of -600 to 400 players.

Katharsas

Yeah exactly the point is not or should not be to get an AI to >= 700 ladder rating.. It should be simple to select, not too much options. Maybe 4 difficulty levels without further options, fixed map pool that is known to work with those AIs somwhat ok, done.

And if you get people to learn to ACU-tank-spam-bum-rush the AI you have already prepared them better for PvP than they were before. Is it going to be boring fast: Yes. But thats where you switch to ladder or TMM if you want the challenge.

Now about ranking them into the 4 difficulty levels: I think this has been suggested before, but the most logical way would be to just let them play in ladder for a time. The question is how to do that automatically.

Fearghal

I like the idea of being able to have the AI's rating move up and down with it's win / loss ratio against players also.
The AI's are constantly getting better and just like a person its rating should reflect that.
Would be nice if AI's would be occasionally tested against more experienced players (no grey ratings) and
their ratings were adjusted just like the players.
There would have to be a way to "create a user name type account" for each and have designated modders play their AI's against volunteers periodically to get close to it's true rating/difficulty.

tatsu

@Fearghal said in AI MEGATHREAD:

The AI's are constantly getting better

No they aren't.

obydog002

Hello, I have tried to search RNG and micro ais in the mods tab in faf to no avail. May I asked where I might be able to find these mods?

Fearghal

@obydog002 said in AI MEGATHREAD:

Hello, I have tried to search RNG and micro ais in the mods tab in faf to no avail. May I asked where I might be able to find these mods?

At top of FAF screen where you see:
News, chat, play, maps, mods, leaderborads, etc....
Click on "Mods"
then in top left Open field box where it says "name"
type "RNG" and hit enter...
You will then see the RNGAI mod.
click the download icon in the top right,

same for the MicroAI:
type micro in name field and enter and you will see the
MicroAI mod.

obydog002

Thanks, I had it accidentally set with some weird queries

tatsu

@obydog002 said in AI MEGATHREAD:

Thanks, I had it accidentally set with some weird queries

you also need to enable them once you start a lobby go into "option"->"mods"-> then find them in the list and click on them to enable. after you do that you'll have them in the dropdown.

Gatorized

So did you guys ever do anything with this?

maudlin27

Ranking of the AI is available from this thread:
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/2931/monthly-ai-tourney-series/26
i.e. ranked from hardest to weakest (based on AI vs AI games which give a reasonable proxy for overall difficulty but this will still vary based on playstyle and map):

M28 (the above link predated M28, but it beats M27 on most maps)
M27
RNG (may be comparable with M27 on some maps now)
Swarm / DilliDalli (I'd rank dillidalli a bit higher than swarm, but it'll depend heavily on playstyle)
Sorian Edit
Uveso
SCTA
Adaptive

I'm hoping at some point this year to do a new series of AI vs AI matchups to give details of how the AI compare on different maps.

Discussion on introducing AI into ladder (there was a more detailed discord discussion, but finding things in discord is difficult):
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/5549/the-what-ais-in-ladder-season-2?_=1676483393475